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stoopid_face
Aug 21, 2013, 11:28 PM
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Hi,
I keep hearing stories about cams ripping out of limestone? Has anyone fallen on a cam placement in limestone that hasn't ripped?!
I have been working my way up through the grades here in the canadian rockies for the past couple summers. I havent fallen on my gear but i am starting to climb harder routes and am (was) beginning to trust my cam placements. However this last weekend i experimented by taking a small whipper on a reasonably placed cam backed up by a bolt. Needless to say it ripped, i tried placing it several times in different orientations and it still popped. Definetly kinda concerning.
It was an orange metolius ultra light power cam. It was placed in a relatively parallel vertical crack that had no mineral deposits on the inside of walls, was not dirty, and was slightly textured (ie not smooth). The limestone was as bomber as it gets around here. The cam lobes were deployed in the green zone (almost yellow). It wasn't placed super deep, maybe an inch and half back from the outside surface. It was mostly aligned in anticipated direction of fall but was slighty rotated up and away from the direction of fall due to the geometry of the crack and nearby rock (slightly overhanging route, not totally vertical crack). I climbed about 4 feet above the cam (just below my feet) with about 30-40ft of rope out when i "fell". My partner was using a standard atc. To my surprise it popped. I could feel it pop so it held for a bit before the extended bolt caught me. When i checked the crack it looks like it tracked out (hard to tell for sure- some small scratches but no deep "tracks" like i would have expected). I placed it once more with the lobes flipped around and that time i could barely feel it pop.
Regardless, it wasn't an awesome placement but then again i would have happily taken it if i was on lead and wouldn't have been super eager to plug another piece.
What i learned from this:
Cams in PARALLEL limestone might really suck. Need to experiment some more to come to this conclusion.
Don't fall in the rockies....
I'm really second guessing my faith in cams (which could be agood thing?)
So has anyone fallen on cams in limestone and lived to tell about it?! All i seem to find on the internet is cams ripping...Also i don't care to hear about all damn theory behind cams i would just like to hear about real life climbing situations (ie empirical evidence).
Thanks!
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bearbreeder
Aug 22, 2013, 12:30 AM
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if you want place you can "fall" and hopefully not die in the canadian rockies go to the quartzite at lake louise ...
or come to squamish ...
if you do climb on limestone, place a lot more gear, especially passive
the metolius is as good as it gets for small cams for the placement you mentioned ... it has the lowest camming angle ...
some say aliens work better because of the softer lobes ... but with their large camming angle i am unwilling to test that theory on lead personally
theres a reason sport is so popular around canmore
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granite_grrl
Aug 22, 2013, 12:00 PM
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Key to placing cams in limestone is to find slight consrictions or pods to place them in. I have caught falls on cams placed like this, though there was also that one time the cam turned in the pod an my husband bent the lobe on his #4 C4.
On another route with a more paralell sided crack he ripped 3 cams and fell into the talus. It was after that we decided to save most of our gear climbing for area with better rock and that clipping bolts on limestone was a lot more fun.
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kennoyce
Aug 22, 2013, 12:45 PM
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Ah, cams in limestone, this reminds me of this one time when I was sport climbing on limestone and had taken a small rack with me for some reason. As we were there, someone in my group who had never trad climbed before asked me to show them how cams work. I happely abliged and found a lovely 1" parallel sided crack to place a cam in to demonstrate how they work. I placed the cam perfectly at about 1/2 expansion, gave it a tug, and it pulled right out of the crack. Needless to say, my demonstration didn't inspire a lot of confidence in my audience, but it did teach me one important lesson, limestone is for sport climbing only.
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ecade
Aug 22, 2013, 1:33 PM
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I live in Ontario, we have limestone, having climbed in the rockies a little, I think our limestone might be better, who'd have thought.
We have route called Nutcracker, 5.8 great hand jams nice line. A buddy who is a very strong and experienced trad climber having onsighted it and repeated it many times decided he was going to take some falls on his pro. He was trying to get me to be more confident in our rock. He purposefully fell 3 times on lead on 2 different cams. Both held. On both falls he was about 5'-6' above his piece (his feet were either at or just above/below the piece)
Another time on a route called Tits Up at Mt Nemo, I took on a cam, I sussed out the moves, climbed up, got spooked for the 1 committing move, down climbed back and took, this ensued 4 -5 times. on the last time, I noticed the cam lobes coming out, luckily, I grabbed a monster jug before the lobes fully cam out, I then plugged in 2 nuts and cam equalized with a nylon sling and lowered back to the ground. In this instance, I should have extended the cam to have prevented wrong directional pull (upward from repeated up and down climbing). My buddy then rocked the route and I seconded it, amazing what being calm does because that move that seemed tough was really at the grade and that grade is well below what I can sport climb (the move wasn't really much a trad/crack move, it was more of a sport style move then required minimal crack skills so i'd not chalk it up entirely to my poorer crack skills)
I guess, C'est la vie... goes to show you never can tell.
(This post was edited by ecade on Aug 22, 2013, 1:38 PM)
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stoopid_face
Aug 22, 2013, 9:37 PM
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There are too many radical limestone trad routes around these parts to stop climbing them so that isn't really an option for me. Granite, quartzite, gneiss is obviously the bomb when it comes to placing gear especially when you're coming from a limestone background. Its super confidence inspiring, but seeing that I'm "stuck" here in this limestone playground (damn first world problems) i had better figure out wether a cam in parallel limestone is worth a damn. When placing cams i always try to slot them in a pod or a feature that "locks" it in place but sometimes that isn't an option.
So...I think im going to pick up some smaller cow bells to compliment my larger ones and to fill in the gap bewteen my tricams and big cowbells; even if i get ridiculed at the crag for making all that damn noise with those "archaic" pieces. (Typically by that individually racked cam hoarding, sport draw only, single rope toting climber...) 
Anyways thanks for sharing and im going to try and test a few more pieces (smaller hexes included) for my own peace of mind soon. I'll try and snap some photos and post those too.
Thanks!
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roninthorne
Aug 23, 2013, 12:35 AM
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Climb on metamorphic limestone here in WV, and have had some interesting falls on passive and camming gear. Still here, no horror stories or near-death experiences (at least, none that can be blamed on the combination of cam and limestone). Longest fall- 15 feet on a #3 in a pod- we don't have many parallel-sided cracks around this part of the Panhandle... that's all down in the Gorge.
It's an acquired taste, leading on limestone... there are over 38 routes at the nearby crag, 100 further down the road, and only one of them is a trad line... oddly enough, it's mine. Trad climbers usually head over the mountain to Senecas Rocks, so I have plenty of lines to snag, with no waiting.
I'll say this... leading with trad gear in a limestone crack makes bolts so very happy and convenient, when you head back to the sport crags.
Climb on-
B)
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kennoyce
Aug 23, 2013, 1:09 PM
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roninthorne wrote: Climb on metamorphic limestone here in WV, and have had some interesting falls on passive and camming gear. Still here, no horror stories or near-death experiences (at least, none that can be blamed on the combination of cam and limestone). Longest fall- 15 feet on a #3 in a pod- we don't have many parallel-sided cracks around this part of the Panhandle... that's all down in the Gorge. It's an acquired taste, leading on limestone... there are over 38 routes at the nearby crag, 100 further down the road, and only one of them is a trad line... oddly enough, it's mine. Trad climbers usually head over the mountain to Senecas Rocks, so I have plenty of lines to snag, with no waiting. I'll say this... leading with trad gear in a limestone crack makes bolts so very happy and convenient, when you head back to the sport crags. Climb on- B)
Metamorphic limestone? Sorry, but that just doesn't work. Limestone is a sedementary rock, and when it is metamorphosed it becomes marble.
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bearbreeder
Sep 4, 2013, 7:36 PM
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kennoyce wrote: Ah, cams in limestone, this reminds me of this one time when I was sport climbing on limestone and had taken a small rack with me for some reason. As we were there, someone in my group who had never trad climbed before asked me to show them how cams work. I happely abliged and found a lovely 1" parallel sided crack to place a cam in to demonstrate how they work. I placed the cam perfectly at about 1/2 expansion, gave it a tug, and it pulled right out of the crack. Needless to say, my demonstration didn't inspire a lot of confidence in my audience, but it did teach me one important lesson, limestone is for sport climbing only.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW1teH6k9xo
a big gray dragon (same as #4 camalot) no less
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acorneau
Sep 5, 2013, 12:19 AM
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Yikes!
Wonder if the same thing would have happened if they used a cam with a lower camming angle like a Metolius.
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bearbreeder
Sep 5, 2013, 12:26 AM
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thats a dragon with a 13.75 deg
i believe the metolius has 13.25 deg ...
its possible, but i wouldnt stake my life on it ...
if you can pull whats basically a #4 camalot, you know yr just effed ...
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rgold
Sep 5, 2013, 1:28 AM
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Get a set of Totem Cams. They were designed, at least partially, with an eye to limestone placements and, by construction, ought to have higher holding power than most everything else.
Then learn the fine art of redundant protecting strategy. Betting the farm on a single cam in limestone is probably not a way to have a long climbing career.
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roninthorne
Sep 19, 2013, 3:34 PM
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Take it up with the geology majors I've heard toss the term around when I asked, if that is the most important point you get out of the discussion.
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fng
Sep 23, 2013, 4:19 PM
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Don't have to worry about limestone near me, all granite. I would think, as with iffy pro in granite, the belayer should know to do a soft catch when appropriate. Just curious if that would make a difference in limestone.
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USnavy
Sep 23, 2013, 6:35 PM
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fng wrote: Don't have to worry about limestone near me, all granite. I would think, as with iffy pro in granite, the belayer should know to do a soft catch when appropriate.
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markspend01
Oct 2, 2013, 1:02 PM
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Hey Guys well i think that's really appreciating post about cams in limestone.Thanks!!
http://www.gmgstone.com.au/
(This post was edited by markspend01 on Oct 5, 2013, 3:58 PM)
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anarkhos
Oct 16, 2013, 11:56 PM
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I never had a tri-cam rip out....oh you mean THOSE cams.
I know some Spaniards who trad climb in limestone and they only use totem or aliens due to their narrow heads and flexible stems.
But you should really consider just using tricams.
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sonso45
May 5, 2014, 5:35 PM
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I've climbed lots of trad on Limestone. In Spain, Montrebei is a 1500' trad crag and it is great rock. Pedra Forca is also a big trad place in the Pyrenees. The Dolomites are big and trad protected.
I have never had gear rip out but I don't fall much. I do find myself using more passive pro and looking for constrictions when placing cams.
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olderic
May 5, 2014, 8:10 PM
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USnavy wrote: fng wrote: Don't have to worry about limestone near me, all granite. I would think, as with iffy pro in granite, the belayer should know to do a soft catch when appropriate. Fixed that for you. The pro is irrelevant. The belayer always never should, except under specific conditions, perform a soft catch.
Fixed
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