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maiorlive
Jan 22, 2003, 8:13 PM
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So you’ve just fallen 20m onto rock after a failed rappel – climber error. You’re looking up, because you have to avoid moving your spine, and marvelling at the neurochemistry that is commonly referred to as shock. Right now all you can feel is the moment, your brain has simplified your consciousness angling for simple physical survival. One week from now though, you’ll be facing your fear of what Joe Simpson called “disillusionment” in his book This Game of Ghosts: realizing that it wasn’t worth it. It's the fear that you'll come to know that the danger and risk of death and trauma is not worth it: you’re going to decide never to climb again.
Or you could take a pill. Right now, before the shock wears off and the neurochemistry of fear and regret starts to take hold in your brain. http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0304/baard.php
What do you think? Better climbing through chemistry?
W
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tanner
Jan 22, 2003, 8:38 PM
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I think I would just get more focused and more pumped up. I fear falure and the unknown more than pain or injury. Thats why I'm calm soloing but I get freaked on the sharp end of the rope. The rope implies falling and the lack of gear implies insecuraty. No rope means falling is not an option there for the thought is disregarded and the rock is the securaty.
The mind does strange things.
I've almost died on my mountain bike and all I could think about was riding after that.
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dingus
Jan 22, 2003, 8:52 PM
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It isn't a 'what if' question for me. I've been seriously injured climbing. Never went through this disillusionment ritual, not once.
But in keeping with your question... I'd recommend the Spinal Tap solution.
"Sex, drugs and rock and roll. And I could do without the rock and roll..."
DMT
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maiorlive
Jan 22, 2003, 9:03 PM
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You don't sound as frightened as you ought to be.
Guys, read the link.
W
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bandycoot
Jan 22, 2003, 9:16 PM
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Very interesting question. I have been hurt and almost died in some of my sporting endeavours. It scared my terribly at the time and force me to stop temporarily, like a day or a few hours, but I always was willing to go back for more! I don't really like to take drugs of any kind unless an illness really truly requires it, so I would have to turn the pill down. At the worst, my fear is there for a reason, and it will keep me alive!
Josh
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holmeslovesguinness
Jan 22, 2003, 9:18 PM
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Freaky article - the implications are rather unsettling.
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scottharms
Jan 22, 2003, 9:34 PM
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After reading the article this is my preliminary view. The pill is tampering where tampering should not go. Where is the line between consciousness and delusionment going to be drawn. In a sense this is creating delusionment instead of stopping it. I don't think we should be losing our sense of mortallity in life, climbing or any other part of life.
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maiorlive
Jan 22, 2003, 9:49 PM
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Here’s another one:
There’s a fellow at my gym who tells this story about climbing with a partner who was slightly autistic or ADD or something. This climber took some sort of medication that helped him think straight, but a side effect was that it reduced his brain’s ability to produce certain fear-related neurochemicals. He was quite literally fearless and they used this guy to ropegun the leads that they found sketchy. He wasn’t any better a climber, he just didn’t appear capable of reacting to the exposure or to the consequences.
I don’t know how I feel personally about using this guy as a ropegun. I mean, it’s not like he cared – he chose to try the climbs. But then, perhaps he truly wasn’t capable of caring. Should his partners then have cared for him and not let him climb anything they were frightened of? Basically, did his inability to fear the fearsome invalidate or at least diminish his climbing?
W
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vegastradguy
Jan 22, 2003, 10:14 PM
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Although the implications are unsettling, its actually quite a remarkable feat. I think that if we can avoid having situations like we do with some Vietnam veterans, that would obviously be very appealing, both to the government and to soldiers.
However, given that we would rather spend money to develop something that will enable soldiers to kill without remorse than spend money to work towards a better, more peaceful world, really says something about the society we live in.
I am not saying that this is a good thing, but given the current world we live in, it may not be a bad option for soldiers. I would be VERY hesitant, though, to make it available to the public. That one screams problematic.
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thomasribiere
Jan 22, 2003, 10:24 PM
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I just wonder whether this drug has already been used in similar events or not. It looks like the "rape pill" too.
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climblouisiana
Jan 22, 2003, 10:33 PM
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In a way, it reminds me of the movie "Jacob's Ladder". If you rob people of their conscience then bad things will happen. Especially people with lethal weapons. People who have "bad" thoughts will lose their inhibitions/fears and act out. There are evil things lurking in people's psyche's[sp?] that this drug would probably bring to the surface.
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maiorlive
Jan 22, 2003, 10:45 PM
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The article's moral implications for warfare are appalling. Like viagra this drug could have widespread implications for societies across the world. I’m interested in how it could affect us as climbers. What if you took a drug that made your memory and reaction to your last epic less ... epic? Would you climb with someone who had deliberately altered their memory of or emotional reaction to their last near death experience so they could feel more comfortable?
Fear is such an important part of the climbing experience. I think one of the few meaningful and useful distinctions (separations) one could make between climbers is based on how a person reacts to their fear. Do you try to use it or lose it? And if the latter, would you take a drug to do so?
W
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drector
Jan 22, 2003, 10:55 PM
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For allowing soldiers to do unspeakable acts without regret, it sounds like a bad idea to give them this drug. For people involved in accidents where they are not using the drug to remove guilt but only bad memories, fear, and PTSD, sure. My Mom saw a guy burn to death. I bet that if I asked her, she say that she would have liked to have had that drug.
I would take it after a climbing accident if it was extremely frightening.
Dave
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waggas
Jan 22, 2003, 10:57 PM
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I don't know about the rest of you, but for, one of the best aspects of climbing is conquering my fear. I mean, when your standing on some minute ripple, and crimping another ripple, and ever little primitive part of your brain is yelling at you to cut this $#!& out, and get back on the ground where you belong…. It’s that point when you push past that stuff, and make the next move that really means it for me….
I think using drugs to lesson/remove those reactions would just dilute the experience.
Just my 2c
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esimhs99
Jan 22, 2003, 11:44 PM
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the whole things seems a little kooky to me. it seems to me that if people just popped a pill every time they might have regret, a lot of bad things could happen. people would not have any second thoughts about doing anything because they know that they could take a pill if they are going to feel bad about it. it is bad enough that there are some people who are not remorsefull, and do things and not feel regret, but it would be horrible to think that this pill would create more people like that.
it also seems that numbing pain that people feel is not right either. not to say that people should be in pain, but it does not seem natural to just take a pill to make the pain go away. it might be good for people who have experienced extreme trauma, but then where does the line get drawn. at first it might be hard to attain this drug, but before you know it people will start getting it for normal pain and grief, no just extreme trauma.
messing with the body's chemicals always makes me skeptical and this is one of those instances.
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rock_diva
Jan 23, 2003, 7:48 PM
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From the article:
"It's the morning-after pill for just about anything that produces regret, remorse, pain, or guilt,"
Regret, remorse, pain and guilt are important responses that our physical, emotional, and spiritual selves need. Without such feelings we would become completely de-sensitized. Imagine a society without such things -- committing every vice imaginable without thinking twice. No moral consequences for our actions -- and no fear to keep us from doing things that would endanger our lives and the lives of others.
Scares me.
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djmeat
Jan 23, 2003, 8:40 PM
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utterly fascinating........
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