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davidji
Feb 4, 2003, 11:12 PM
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What do you carry when you want to be equipped for full rope-length raps?
Half ropes? Twin ropes? Two Single ropes? A single rope and a zip line?
Usually I climb on a single, and just drag another if I want the ability for a full rope rap. Of the choices above, that seems to be the heaviest. It also seems the most popular in the US.
Lightest I think is single + zip line, *IF* the zip line is really small. But the smaller they (e.g., 6mm)are the harder they are to rap on (tangle-prone, etc.). And rapping on the single/ pulling the zip line can be complex and prone to snag. If the zip line is as big as 8mm, rapping is easy, but twins are lighter.
As far as I can tell Brits tend to like doubles, and Germans tend to like twins.
What do you like?
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mountainmonkey
Feb 4, 2003, 11:21 PM
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doubles - plus there are many more benefits.
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sspssp
Feb 4, 2003, 11:23 PM
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A difficult question with lots of possibilities. And if you climb on a single and take a second, do you drag the second, pull it up and stack it at each belay, or coil and carry it. All trade offs.
In the past, I've lead on a double rope. I've gotten away from, but I'm thinking of doing it again. Doubles can cut down on rope drag, no second rope to drag, always have an extra rope to rap. But two ropes TANGLE and are a pain to belay.
Actually I had a 100m rope that I folded over and lead on as if were two doubles. The benefit of this is no knot to catch when you go to rap. The slight down sides are tying into the middle with a butterfly and not being able to split the ropes when hiking up. I would do this again, but I can't find a bi-color 120m rope and 50m is just not standard anymore (at least in Yosemite/California).
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iamthewallress
Feb 4, 2003, 11:25 PM
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I have 8.1's that are rated to be OK as both singles and twins. I use them as twins when there isn't enough wanding to deal w/ the extra hassle involved with doubles. I find that it's easier and lighter than using one full size single and hauling something smaller since you can stack them together and belay w/ them as though they were one rope. I don't like to simul-rap on them though.
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davidji
Feb 5, 2003, 2:06 AM
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Thx for the replies all.
Walress,
That's what I was thinking about doing--I forget which rope I saw that's rated for both, but I was thinking of buying it.
In my limited experience with doubles, it doesn't seem like something I'd want to use all the time. Twins seem like less hassle for both leader & belayer (except on a wandering pitch or one with a traverse).
The only real drawback I anticipate for those 8.1s is that I'd expect excess stretch from the skinniest doubles on the market.
David
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granitegod
Feb 5, 2003, 2:21 AM
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Twins. I have 8.8 Mammuts, they rock. Another adavantage: Fast raps - I'm always careful to tie the ends together. Belaying with twins I like the Trango jaws - the V slots grab skinny ropes really well.
By double ropes, I'm assuming that people above are referring to HALF ropes, which are not rated to take a single rope fall, meaning both ropes must be clipped to every piece of gear - a hassle, and adds to drag, rather than reducing!! 8.1 single rope? Never heard of that one.
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valygrl
Feb 5, 2003, 7:10 AM
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Sorry granitegod, you got it backwards. Twins = clip the both to every piece, Doubles = Half = clip to alternate pieces. And as Melissa points out, there are some that are rated for both. (And yeah, it matters, if you treat doubles as if they were twins, you end up with too much force on the pro, not enough stretch (there's a word for this property, can't remember it right now.).)
[Ack, I used nested parentheses, I'm a geek!]
I went through this debate last year, and ended up buying doubles. I like them, but the drawback is that they are harder to belay with, so if you have multiple partners (that sounds bad) you have to train them all. I like it, because then you don't have to have that argument about who drags the second rope, the leader or the follower.
That's another topic....
I sometimes end up leading on a single and taking one of my doubles as a rap line. Sometimes it's easier to deal with, like if the climb is at my limit, I would rather not have to worry about which rope I'm supposed to clip next, and if my partner is going to feed the right one and hang onto the other one!
Edit: added link & more comments
[ This Message was edited by: valygrl on 2003-02-04 23:24 ]
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brutusofwyde
Feb 5, 2003, 9:52 AM
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If I may have to haul a pack, I climb with a single and a trail/haul/rap line.
Doubles/twins -- the Beal ice line to be exact -- is my preference for climbs where no hauling is needed.
For ice climbing I use twins -- the ice floss.
If climbing as a team of three, I use beefier doubles -- 8.8mm or 9mm, and belay each follower on one line.
Brutus
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tradklime
Feb 5, 2003, 4:21 PM
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I usually use half/ double ropes for trad. Recently I've been using twins on ice and realy like them, I may consider going to those for trad as well.
With the exception of haul bags and other complicating factors, 2 single ropes, no F'in way; single and a zip line, what's the benefit over twins? I doubt it would be much, if any, lighter.
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stevo
Feb 5, 2003, 4:36 PM
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I use half ropes pretty much all the time. As claimed above I have the ropes that can be clipped occasionally as twins as well, but I only do this on the first piece and my draw is a zipper.
I have no trouble remembering what rope to pull, I belay with cassin belay plate to minimise hassle. I climb a tonne of ice and alpine routes and this is my standard rope method. I always use a prussic back up when rappelling b/c the ropes are thin and fast. If you got hit by falling rock or ice it would be hard to maintain control.
Question: Why do climbers use twin ropes for ice climbing? Aren't half ropes way better, I see lots of visiting ice climbers to the rockies doing this.
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tradklime
Feb 6, 2003, 5:51 PM
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I prefer twins on ice for the weight savings and simplicity. Most pure ice climbs don't wander that much and half ropes can almost be more complicated, rope travel and keeping track which to clip. Not rocket science I know, but one less thing to think about. Also having the ropes keep together, it helps to avoid sticking a crampon through one of them, less in the way.
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stevo
Feb 7, 2003, 4:06 PM
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Twins have a higher impact force than double ropes. In the unlikely case you were to fall, the lower impact force with the half rope clipped would decrease the probability of ripping your ice screw. This is my simple case for not using twin ropes.
I climbed for a week last year on twin ropes, the added benefits I prefer double ropes.
I saw Sean Dougherty (author of Selected Alpine climbs of the Can. Rockies) give a presentation last night on his alpine system. He started off using only one single rope (committed), then switched to doubles or a single and haul line.
I would be interested in climbing alpine walls with a single rope and a tag line. Any feedback on this method?
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tradklime
Feb 7, 2003, 7:46 PM
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Impact force is a very important consideration, especially with marginal pro. I use screamers for most, if not all, of my ice screw placments.
Since they activate at >2kn, it is much better than relying on your rope.
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brutusofwyde
Feb 13, 2003, 12:57 PM
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I also use screamers on nearly every ice pro. So the impact force of twins is much less of a concern, and the reduced hassle vs. double ropes is a great benefit. Had to switch to a Jaws or similar higher friction belay device with the skinny ropes though. That includes the Beal doubles.
Single and tag line is best if you have a pack to haul. I've used this system on long backcountry climbs in the High Sierra for 3 decades.
Some will say "dump the pack and go light and fast" but in many cases -- for me -- that is not an option. Grade V and Grade VI climbs in the outback, with alpine weather, and without established routes, sometimes simply require hauling.
Brutus
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