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epic_ed
Mar 10, 2003, 4:17 PM
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Boy, we could easily start the same thread in the aid forum. It's a little more acceptible in that arena, but I'm ashamed to say I took it to a new level this weekend.
As for using one sport climbing -- sure what the hell. I climb for me, not for you so feel free to tell me you think I'm a wuss. However, you might want to give some serious thought to making fun of a guy using a 22 ft. pole. It's one of those Pika telescoping gadgets. I can smack you around with it from another zip code.
Ed
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jughead
Mar 10, 2003, 4:46 PM
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NO!!! JUST NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
fear is part of climbing IF your an amateur then cool fine "stick clip" or second, top rope whatever but your not climbing if you take the easy way out because you scared its like going up a top rope seeing the crux and saying "oooo no I don't like that pull me up past it will you" JUST NO!!!!
Be cool 8)
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climblouisiana
Mar 10, 2003, 5:04 PM
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Stick clipping is fair game on a sport route. It's a sport route after all.
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melekzek
Mar 10, 2003, 5:11 PM
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I wouldnt mind anybody stickclipping all the way and even claiming a flash or whatever......
But when I first went to raimers in austin, there were not one, not two but 3 groups (out of 5) with stickclips running around. I started feeling weird, maybe i should get one :lol:
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tradguy
Mar 10, 2003, 5:30 PM
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I found one of those monster Pika stick clips at Joshua Tree once - leaning against a boulder near the bottom of RML on South Echo Cove Rock. It was really nice, and probably cost the owner about $100 or more. Unfortunately, seeing no use for it at the time, I turned it in as "Lost and Found" at Nomads. Now I can see where they would be handy for hard routes where the crux is below the first bolt, and you just want to prevent injury from decking, but to carry one up a route?? Man, that's serious desperation.
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mhr2000
Mar 12, 2003, 10:03 PM
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When I see threads like this it makes me mad!! So many climbers talk about the "Climb for yourself" attitude then want to criticize somebody when they do exactly that. I bet the guy was having a blast and didn't care one bit what others thought.
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drkodos
Mar 12, 2003, 10:30 PM
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It's all good.
It's only cheating if you're playing by the rules..... 8)
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melekzek
Mar 12, 2003, 10:35 PM
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One of my friends visited Elbsandstein, where he and his friend saw a group using sticks to clip first bolts, his friend went and "accidentally" break their stick, "oops, my mistake",
you know saxon climbing ethics...
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afcanyonclimber
Mar 12, 2003, 11:19 PM
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melekzek-
Thats so bulls@#$ that they broke the stick clip, damn. You know most climbers are just awesome people, but every once in awhile you meet someone that forces there own ethics and feelings on everyone else and we all end up paying for it. Seriously, if you don't like using stick clips, then don't use them, who cares if other people do.... I bet that you have never seen a free climber coming over to a sport or trad climber and cutting there rope. Climbing is all about having fun, it should be left at that.
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mtnjohn
Mar 12, 2003, 11:36 PM
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First of all it's not called a clipping stick or whatever
they are rightfully called "cheater sticks" and have been call that since the 70's (usually attributed to Jim Bridwell)
Their use is for clipping gear (draws usually) when you are to scared to do it yourself on lead.
Climb how you want.
It's more fun (to me) when you a leave a bit fear in the game
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mreardon
Mar 13, 2003, 5:16 PM
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In sport climbing, there are no ethics.
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melekzek
Mar 13, 2003, 5:40 PM
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afcanyonclimber,
read my post again, I am not advertising going and breaking peoples chetersticks or whatsoever, it is only a point to show that in "some" places using cheatsticks is an offense to the routes/local climbers etc...
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aimeerose
Mar 14, 2003, 12:15 AM
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Hmmm, do I sense some "clip stick envy"?
I used to onsight or redpoint all my routes. Then I started climbing with my husband and he would stick routes up so we could work them. I went from climbing 5.10 to 5.12! Did I "cheat" because I toproped the routed before I lead it? I still lead it eventually and even placed the draws myself in some cases.
There are many hard sport routes that require the first bolt to be clipped due to the difficult nature of the climb. If it says it the guidebook to clip the first (or even second) bolt, are you still cheating? It doesn't seem like it if that's what the person who established the route meant for you to do.
Just something to think about.
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afcanyonclimber
Mar 14, 2003, 12:29 AM
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melekzek-
I know that you weren't advertising that, i was just expressing my anger towards the people that did that. :lol:
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jt512
Mar 14, 2003, 1:24 AM
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If some of you geniuses would go back and read the posts by AimeeRose and me you might actually learn something.
-Jay
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yeti
Mar 14, 2003, 1:37 AM
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One day, I saw a guy do an ice climb with thingies in his hands, like hammers, but with pointy ends. Sure looks like cheating to me.
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ozzy
Apr 13, 2003, 8:29 PM
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Ive done it a few times on routes that I am considering on projecting, but it is usually just so I can hang out at a area of the climb to study it for a later red point atempt.
Ive also had some friends try some of my prodjects for fun and aid up them so that the draws are hung for me later on. Im not a big fan of aid but if it helps or make the first bolt safer than a broken leg, then I will be the first dude with a stick in my hand. :twisted:
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nickb
Apr 14, 2003, 8:46 PM
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" Mind your own bussiness!" If it dosn't change the route for you what do you care.
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bmoscon
Apr 14, 2003, 8:53 PM
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yeah i dont see what the big deal is. he wasnt affecting you in any way
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timstich
Apr 22, 2003, 8:33 AM
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While we are on the subject of stick clipping, how do you all feel about other sport climbing cheats?
Do you ever find yourself accidentally using those metal footholds?
Does that nylon hold find its way into your grasp before the heinous 4-footer happens?
How does clip-take-clip-take sound to you?
I lead Black Cat Bone in the Potrero with my friend Eliza last Saturday and had a grand time. Problem was, I wanted to top out that mother so much, that I was not in the least bit concerned about getting the onsight to every pitch. I wanted to make good time, not frig what was kicking my butt and tire out. As fate would have it, I had to lead all of the hard 10s. The first crux is a thin couple of clips under a roof on pitch 6. It almost sickened me to do it, but rather than falling at the tenuous clipping stance I had attained, I just grabbed my draw.
"Damnit! I cheated," thought I. Well, as long as I don't say otherwise, am I OK with this? I looked up at the roof and clipped the next bolt to the left. Pumped out of my mind, I had to yell "take." Huff, huff, huff...god....tired. So it's either frig this or just get through it so my partner doesn't have to spend half the day waiting for me to do this. Rest, clip, hang, clip...getting better...can climb and stop cheating now. Whew.
I did at least lead the diehedral pitch 8 clean, with the exception of a misplaced foot rounding the corner to get into the chimney. That is a way wacky pitch, by the way. Strenuous. But this is a route I plan to revisit and go for the future redpoint. It was OK in the end to me to cheat that particular day because it allowed me to remove mental limits to what I would attempt and it got us up and off in a reasonable length of time. Doing it in style may not happen the first time. The easier routes I can make the style. Heh heh.
Thus concludes my confession. I am not proud, but I am clear on what happens sometimes. That day I chose to summit over sticking to the rules. And I can't go back and change things...so f-it, better go climb something else! Ha ha ha!
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savedbymynuts
Apr 22, 2003, 11:32 AM
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In reply to: While we are on the subject of stick clipping, how do you all feel about other sport climbing cheats?
The only cheat I have problems with are the ones affecting other climbers. I don't mine any climbing style.
I do care if someone lacks ethics though, chipping or adding bolts when the local community does not agree, that type of things. All the rest should and does not involve me.
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ecocliffchick
Apr 22, 2003, 4:09 PM
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Who are you cheating if you grab the draws to clip them, or put them up with a stick-clip? If you feel it's against your ethics and you don't do it, how is it cheating you if anyone else does it?
I always thought the great thing about climbing was that there weren't any rules that you have to follow. It's an individual persuit and you get out of it what you want.
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redpiton
Apr 22, 2003, 4:40 PM
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since when in 5.11 to 5.12 MODERATE?
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winter
Apr 22, 2003, 7:13 PM
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I totally agree with most of the posts here...climb how you want to climb. If you climb by stick clipping every bolt and you are outside having fun isn't that what matters? I heard an amazing climber say just the other day that they could climb good 5.7's for the rest of their life and be happy, that's how good the climbing was. I've seen a solid 5.13 climber, one of the most beautiful climbers I ever saw, stick clip an entire 5.10 route just because he didn't feel like the lead that day. It is so not a big deal. Maybe some of you climb for the fear but I climb because it's fun. I mean if you climb the climb with a stick clip, you still made it to the top, you still had to pass every move, you just didn't have to risk a 30 ft fall on some of the bolt moves. I don't know, I think it's the fact that you are outside and not in front of the TV that counts.
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apollodorus
Apr 22, 2003, 7:43 PM
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"Moderate 5.11/5.12" means the climb is way over-rated, and more like 5.9 :lol:
As long as you don't change, ruin, scar or otherwise deface the rock when you go up, you can do whatever you want. Hogging a popular line by blood-pointing it for hours and hours is probably worse than stick clipping, grabbing gear, getting up and getting out of the way.
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