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alpinerockfiend
Mar 13, 2003, 6:54 PM
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This is sort of a response to the topic about chipping, but also its own topic. Everyone who is against chipping actual holds into the rock: What are your views on the cleaning (e.g. scrubbing lichen off of prospective holds, prying off loose and dangerous flakes, trundling loose blocks, etc...) of a route? At all of the sport areas in Jackson, this ethic is accepted and done on rappel, but in the Tetons, the new route ethic is to clean from the ground up, if at all. Sinks Canyon and Wild Iris, both fairly reputable sport areas near Jackson, have taken this ethic to the next level. I've seen flakes bolted to the wall and heard rumors of chipping. I clean my sport routes before I develop and bolt them, but would never chip a hold into the rock (to summarize). What do you think?
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ontario_guide
Mar 13, 2003, 7:02 PM
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I think you are right that these are two seperate issues. I think it really comes down to the environmental ethic of the area. On the Niagara Escarpment for example there are ceader tress which are hundreds of years old and even touching them is taboo whereas I can see an argument for cleaning lichen out of the rocks on new routes.
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arrettinator
Mar 13, 2003, 8:14 PM
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I agree. At the Mills they have some climbs that are covered w/ moss from lack of use and the damp conditions in the area. It's not accepted to clean it off. Pretty much the climbs are lost, but it's better than losing access altogether. It all depends on the location, I guess.
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broker
Mar 13, 2003, 8:19 PM
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I clean my sport routes before I develop and bolt them, but would never chip a hold into the rock (to summarize). What do you think?
I think it was very wise to note that.... I know I will NEXT time just save my own arse
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overlord
Mar 13, 2003, 8:28 PM
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i think CELANING lichen and stuuf and getting rid of LOOSE flakes is good. it improves safety and makes climbing better. who likes to climb on moss covered crunchy routes???
BUT I HATE CHIPPING OR GLUING HOLDS. routes are natural, artifical holds are for gym use only. whoever does that doesn have the balls to do the route the way he/she is supposed to. and he shouldnt be called a climber. climbers climb, querry workers chip rock.
CLIMB ON
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melekzek
Mar 13, 2003, 8:47 PM
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Well, lets consider this kind of situation:
There is an established route, but one of the key holds becomes loose during the time, and it will really destroy the integrity of the natural line, if it falls off. What about putting some epoxy to make the hold stronger?
I am not talking about nasty epoxy smears all around the hold, my question is about whether the hold should be fixed or whether one should let it fall and deal with a new route?
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dingus
Mar 13, 2003, 8:58 PM
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Any one interested in honesty and integrity will tell you there is little to no difference between aggressive cleaning and chipping, except for the intent of the person wielding the crowbar. Chipping is chipping, regardless of intent. Prying "loose" rocks off with a crowbar is chipping.
And lichens are people too my friend. While I have certainly scraped a few of the offending lifeforms out of my way on more occasions than I care to admit, and have weeped bitterly at them underfoot, I have come to appreciate their ability to survive by eating rocks, wind and water. I avoid treading upon them as much as possible. I urge you to protect them when constructing your routes. I think cleaning an entire rock face of all growth simply to build yet another route is as short sighted and perhaps even more callous than chipping holds into blank stone.
Cheers,
DMT
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alpinerockfiend
Mar 14, 2003, 4:21 AM
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In reply to: I think cleaning an entire rock face of all growth simply to build yet another route is as short sighted and perhaps even more callous than chipping holds into blank stone. Cheers, DMT
You know, unfortunately, I didn't make it to Blacktail or the Hoback Shield or Sinks or the Iris first! So I'm just trying to follow in the footsteps of those before me. But with an area that principally my friend and I developed, the Horse Creek Slabs near Dubois, WY, we hope to sort of bring a more traditional aspect back into sport climbing. All of the routes I FA'd sport hand drilled bolts (on lead) on sharp limestone, licheny in some spots. Interesting climbing for sure, check it out if you have the chance. And I would never carry a brush with me into the mountains. Besides the weight, I don't know of any ranges that support the "sport" sort of ethic. I don't even know that I've ever encountered a bolt in the Wind River range, numerous holes and sleeves though. :)
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alpinerockfiend
Mar 14, 2003, 4:24 AM
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Besides, if I went to Sinks Canyon or Blacktail Butte and began chopping routes because I felt that mine sporting fixed heads into crappy limestone offered better protection or a loose block in the middle of a sloping talus field made a better top anchor, I'd be Jim Beyer, right?! (Maybe nobody reads posts on the rec.climbing newsgroup, and even if they did, I doubt they'd remember this one, but anyway...)
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alpinist
Mar 14, 2003, 5:44 AM
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I think a major difference, alpinerockfiend, is when you are establishing a sport climbing area, you are often concerned with the number and quality of routes you put up. No one likes paying out the money it takes to bolt a line so you want a clean, quality line that you can be proud of.
People go to places like Smith Rock, Sinks, Wild Iris, etc. to climb multiple routes with easy access. We head to the mountains to do a limited number of routes where not having it scrubbed clean is part of the adventure.
I think you are going in the right direction with the ground up ethic at Horse Creek Slabs. Where the line gets fuzzy for a lot of people is between cleaning and manufacturing a route.
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alpinerockfiend
Mar 14, 2003, 5:58 AM
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In reply to: People go to places like Smith Rock, Sinks, Wild Iris, etc. to climb multiple routes with easy access. We head to the mountains to do a limited number of routes where not having it scrubbed clean is part of the adventure.
Excellent summary, alpinist.
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flying_dutchman
Mar 14, 2003, 6:39 AM
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Most of the climbs in squamish have had to be cleaned cause the place is a fricken rainforest. When i say 'cleaning' though, im referring to scrubbing moss, dirt and other sh1t from the rocks and cracks. Chipping and glueing holds onto real rock should be a crime punishable by a shooting squad; it is not 'cleaning' a climb.
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ronamick
Mar 14, 2003, 10:42 AM
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You have hit on a very touchy subject with no easy answers. Ovbiously dirt has to be brushed off of holds. Loose flakes swept off or pulled off by hand, but never pried off. If you have to pry, it probably isn't going to pop off, but if it does, that's the traditional means of finding bad holds- by climbing the route. Lots of hollow sounding and even moveable holds are rock solid, but sadly misguided people have been known to remove such holds on established routes, finding them hard to remove and the result is a mangled hold and ugly scar on the rock.
I once removed a giant poison oak vine that was clinging to this awesome jug route. I could see how some would disapprove, but if you never knew it was there, all you see is a great climb. I think the key is in your intent. Are you trying to enhance holds under the guise of cleaning?
The idea is to use the natural features on the rock, and see if nature made a ladder you can climb. Alteration imposes a brutality on nature that for me runs counter to the spirit of climbing.
Good question.
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climbingcowboy
Mar 14, 2003, 12:32 PM
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Me and my brother helped to get a place started, we did a bunch of routes some on lead and some we bolted on rappel, so that none would be over bolted but they would still be safe. We did the tougher ones on rappel because we couldnt lead them clean but wanted to work on them so we would set up a TR and try the route figureing out where the optimal placments would be then rap and put them in. Due to the amount of lose rock and I mean alot of loose pebbles and rock we actually broomed parts of a couple routes when they were first put up. To this day stuff still occansionally comes off these routes when I go climb them because noone else is on these routes.
One reason that nooone climbs there is because it got bad a rap because the other two guys putting routes on severly overhanging routes did some chipping, all the routes they did chip go at 12-14d, now I'm NOT saying I agree with it but the way they did they actully took alot of care and thought, they would use the features already there and then there would be about ten feet totally flat-smooth rock UNCLIMABLE and they added a couple holds keeping it at the same level as the rest of the route. This is only on two walls out there, the other five arnt chipped but now it has a bad name. funny thing is most people cant even climb half thier routes, and there wouldnt be a route there if they hadnt chipped a little. And people are missing the rest of aweome beautiful climbing with none else around.
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vertical_reality
Mar 14, 2003, 1:51 PM
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In Rock & Ice it said that Francois Legrand produced another hold on Kryptonite with "aggreessive cleaning" and dropped the grade from 5.14d to 5.14c. I wonder what the agressive cleaning actually was.
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alpinerockfiend
Mar 14, 2003, 6:57 PM
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In reply to: Alteration imposes a brutality on nature that for me runs counter to the spirit of climbing.
That's a moot point for sure, Ron. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the Sinks Canyon, Wild Iris or Blacktail areas, but I described the basic new routing ethic in some earlier posts to this topic. Would you go there and establish a new route that was covered in lichen, had tons of dubious rock, was runout, and used anchors on top? If so, would you expect it to remain that way for long? I think the alpinist said it best, stating that people do not visit crags like these for that sort of climbing.
note- I am actually looking for an answer to the questions. They're not quite rhetorical.
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