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tenn_dawg
Apr 24, 2003, 6:05 PM
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Okay, Here goes.
I've been considering doing this for awhile just to try and make discussions more productive. There are some opposing viewpoints on aid systems around here, specifically solo systems.
I have watched, (and perhaps participated in) some of them turning into pissing matches resembling old childhood arguments.
("That's a stupid idea...Your stupid")
So in the name of making foreward progress, here's a medium for alternatives.
I'm especially interested in:
Solo belay devices: The grigri has it's flaws, but is a convienent for many reasons as well. Specifically, it allows you to set up a rappel station and lower from any point on the pitch without changing devices. Also, by adding a single jug, you can ascend rather efficiently. I like having this option when I may need to lower a small ammount durring the pitch to backclean, and then return to my high point and be ready to continue climbing. The clove hitch is the traditional alternative, do you still prefer this?
Solo belay systems: I have used the "bessie belayer" or pig on the anchor for a dynamic belay. I like this idea when low on a pitch and facing questionable placements with little rope out. However, In my part of the world, It is rare that I need to haul a pig. Also aid partners are hard to come by. In light of this, I have used a equalized multi-directional belay as my anchor. I saw a picture HERE that uses a clove hitch on the first placement off of the belay. Similar to what I use, but could you explain the benifits, and pitfalls?
Cleaning methods: I love using a GriGri and single jug! I'm sure that there are other ways however. Do you advocate any others?
Hauling methods: 2:1 hauling ratchet works well, but is expensive to build. I 1:1 because I don't haul very heavy loads. One day I will have to though. Is there a 2:1 system that is built out of stuff I probably already have? I have used rescue hauling systems before I bought a pro-trax. They are not very efficient but get the job done. Do you know a better way to set them up using ascenders, and a single wall hauler? I have a couple of ideas, but have never tried them out.
Tagging: I HATE tagging. I would rather spend a couple extra months in thg gym doing crunches and situps so I can hold the extra weight on my rack. That said, I'd like some way to bring up an especially heavy item from the belay if needed. For example, if I was trying to do a clean ascent of an aid route, but at some point found no other option than to nail. I would rather leave the hammer and rack at the belay, but be able to tag it if needed. Another example would be the beer cooler, or skipping CD player.
Woah, that's a bunch of questions. I'd also like to cover prussik (kleimheist) rebelay, but it is being covered HERE already.
Thanks for any help, or suggestions you throw this way!
There's nothing like a smorgassbord. Or a buffet for that matter....Damn, I'm hungry.
Travis
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mesomorf
Apr 24, 2003, 6:38 PM
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In reply to: I would rather spend a couple extra months in thg gym doing crunches and situps so I can hold the extra weight on my rack.
Wait a minute - I have to work out in a gym before I can aid climb?
To heck with that idea then!
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passthepitonspete
Apr 24, 2003, 7:01 PM
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I concur. That would emphatically violate my strict off-the-couch protocol.
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tenn_dawg
Apr 24, 2003, 7:10 PM
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Cough..weenies..Cough
(sniff)
Ahem...Excuse me.
:lol: Travis
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alpinestylist
Apr 24, 2003, 11:48 PM
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Good to see we have moved our hero worship from PTPP to Copperhead...
So lots of questions here in your post. I am a self taught aidster...I possess no other wordly knowledge of of systems...but here are some thoughts.
I have soloed with the Gri Gri extensively. If I am worried about falling I tie a back up knot on a seperate biner. I have noticed teh unit crossloading a biner now and again, which can be bad, but the backup knot should prevent falling to the ground. I only use a clove hitch to belay if I am short fixing and scared. Seems slow for miles of aid, but others would probably disagree. You didn't really pose any other questions here...
FOr a dynamic anchor you could incorporate screamers into the masterpoint, the pig is a better idea. How does clove hitching the first pitch make your anchor dynamic? Seems like it would create a huge impact load on the short piece of rope between the anchor and 1st piece if not built perfect, or just wind up another knot in the rope? Enlighten me.
If I build natural anchors I usually over engineer them on walls, making them multi-directional etc..if its three fatty bolts I use a cordallette and say inshallah.
I have hauled BIG loads before...never have I had to build a 3:1. If with a partner, my lazy ass just waits for them to hop on haul line under me and use them as a counterbalance. If soloing I just hang off the haul strand, and PULL up on the strand headed downhill to the pig, has never failed even on slabs with a BIG pig. I haul with a mini traxion, small shiv, but holds 10 Kn, old wall hauler factory rated 1 Kn, thats what I used before.
I guess I came up before the "better way" and just had big ass racks hanging off me as I soloed. I've met Jim Beyer a few times on the walls and he ALWAYS has a big ole rack, no tagging. If I was going to tag I would hang a tiny piglet below me hanging off of a fifi two pieces down, move it up as I moved up, works well in theory, until you start hooking, or backcleaning. Lowering your own carcass back to the belay is a pain in the ass, and on the mank often not healthy or feasible.
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tenn_dawg
Apr 25, 2003, 12:21 AM
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I like this guy already... Here's his personal descripton...
In reply to: I try to work as little as possible and climb stacks. I love high mileage days either free climbing, running walls in pushes and enchainements, or alpine pushes. Sport climbing is neither and I have to be pretty bored to boulder.
Oh, and There is no worship what so ever going on here.
In reply to: I only use a clove hitch to belay if I am short fixing and scared. Seems slow for miles of aid...
I agree, that's why I want to hear Bryan's alternative.
In reply to: How does clove hitching the first pitch make your anchor dynamic?
I didn't say it does, hence my question to Bryan who hasn't responded yet...
In reply to: FOr a dynamic anchor you could incorporate screamers into the masterpoint, the pig is a better idea.
I think the pig is a better Idea as well. Screamers cost money and are only good for one use. (if really used) I don't use a pig alot of the time though. I really am looking for an idea I haven't thought of.
In reply to: never have I had to build a 3:1
Nor have I
In reply to: I've met Jim Beyer a few times on the walls and he ALWAYS has a big ole rack, no tagging
If you are a tough guy, tag racks are not nessessary. Cough..weenies..tag..Cough... hmmm, excuse me. But I still wouldn't attempt to cary the beer cooler up with me. (I hate warm beer)
In reply to: Lowering your own carcass back to the belay is a pain in the ass, and on the mank often not healthy or feasible.
Yeah, I agree. So is there another way to do it other than the ways already mentioned, that have recieved opposition?
Lets hear it Bryan! I'm listening!
Travis
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passthepitonspete
Apr 25, 2003, 12:26 AM
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I've used a 3:1 twice on my first day of a big solo, when the rope rubbed against a rock. It's almost always overkill.
I am indeed a weenie.
This is a two-fold problem for me. Firstly, I have way too much gear to be able to carry it all, and secondly, I am a weiner-armed light overweight overworked underachieving life insurance agent who couldn't begin to hope to wear his entire rack on his scraggly thirty-four-inch chest.
However I am considering pectoral implants.
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mojorisin
Apr 25, 2003, 1:11 AM
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I like the gri gri for solo aid and always clove hitch, I never use more than 1:1 hauling systems, and the bigger the rack the better. Put your nuts into it. You want to go light ,,go sport climbing with 6 quick draws and a jock strap.
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freeclmr
Apr 25, 2003, 6:29 AM
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solo belay: I use the clove hitch on the seat harness to an ATC on the Yates chest harness. The ATC locks off without tightening the clove using this method. I also like the added, perhaps overkill, security of having this dual system. Always tie in short to a separate biner!
anchor: I use a bomber, equalized three piece + anchor designed for an upward pull and clove hitched to the first piece to prevent shockloading the system.
jugging/cleaning: I've tried many different ways. The method really depends on the situation. Two juggs on and a Ushba attached to the chest harness provides the greatest variety allowing a change in jugging methods as you ascend.
Tag rack: Way too much of a hassle and a potential clusterf***. Suck it up and climb with everything you need for the pitch plus a few pounds more just in case.........
Somebody please explain the system for using the pig as a dynamic belay.
Thanks.
Brian
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epic_ed
Apr 25, 2003, 7:22 AM
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Nice job, Travis. I hope Bryan takes the opportunity to chime in. I realize not everyone has the time to write as extensively as Pete has, but it's very cool when others take the time. You know, despite some of the recent bickering there has never once been an occasion where someone was trying to discourage another person from participating. Despite some of our stylistic differences, there has been a lot of worthwhile contributions and questions answered in this forum recently. I agree, this is not about idol worship. Pete has taken the lead on dispensing the info and he stepped to the plate to help when voices of experience were few and far between on this site. This is a great way to invite other veterans to give their esteemed opinions.
Ed
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tenn_dawg
Apr 25, 2003, 5:56 PM
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I just changed the title of this thread.
Everyone's ideas, and systems are welcome here.
Thanks for the contributions to everyone who has replied so far. Hopefully we'll be able to keep this thread useful and positive.
Travis
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copperhead
Apr 25, 2003, 7:09 PM
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Tenn_Dawg wrote:
In reply to: Oh, and There is no worship what so ever going on here.
That’s good because it’s the last thing we want…
Thanks for changing the thread title, Travis.
I’m still trying to figure out force calculations and Screamer vs. rope dynamics; any help from engineer or physics types would be appreciated. PM me.
Until then, this is the photo that some of you have been referring to and here are a couple of others. This isn’t the only way to go, just something that has worked for me. Details to follow (at some point…). These photos (except the one of the bivy) do not show a haulbag because I was fixing.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=12636
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=12636
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=12635
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=12635
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=12638 http://supertopo.com/...blostbroth_law11.jpg
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=12638
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tenn_dawg
May 10, 2003, 2:05 AM
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I don't get what the upside down hangar on the bolt is for. Dosn't that increase the leverage on the bolt, and mar the threads?
Just curious, this has been setting idle for awhile.
Travis
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