OMG, this is going to get good. Better than NASCAR I tell you.

You actually expect to have a honest, civil debate about whether these holds were manufactured based on pictures? Are we going to have competing geological theories about the plausible formation of these pockets and cracks?

I should also point out that this is the only route of his I have seen.

So much for keeping it civil...And this from a moderator,
who I would think should be held to a higher standard.
Like I said, I'm not going to engage in flame wars here.

Hardman Knott

On another level entirely, the amount of work you put into this is scary. 8)

On another level entirely, the amount of work you put into this is scary.

Nice job compilling the evidence.


On another level entirely, the amount of work you put into this is scary. 8)

Are those holds cleaned with a hammer? Yes. Are they drilled?? No. Look at the surrounding rock in everyone of those pictures. Each section has the exact same formations, coloring, and types of features. You will not find any "novel features" on that route that you cannot find on on every one of the neighboring and surrounding routes ...

1 out of 200+ routes down. ...

I'm glad that Aaron admits the holds were "cleaned" with a hammer.
Whether they were enhanced with a hammer, chisel, drill bit, drill,
etc. does not really matter that much to me; they all have about
the same effect (although it's hard to create a deep pocket with a
blunt hammer).

I agree with Aaron that such "features" (i.e. enhanced holds)
do exist on some of the other routes at the crag. But the locals
did not like Aaron's route because "every" hold on it was enhanced.

Probably Aaron just misjudged the frequency of chipped holds
on the other routes, but that would be hard to judge without
viewing the sections of rock before and after routes are
established (this is how my friend made the observation that
every hold on this particular route was enhanced).

Probably to some people, "frequency of enhanced holds" is
not much of a basis for criticizing a route. I.e. either it "is chipped"
or "isn't chipped". But personally, I don't like to see routes where,
say, over 50% of the holds are enhanced (I'm not sure I'd like to
see routes with 30% of holds chipped, either...). But styles
vary by area. For example at Smith Rock there (was/is?) one
crag up a gully with a lot of bolt-on holds. Such stuff would not
be accepted in most areas, like say The Cookie in Yosemite.
And you don't see many sport routes at Lover's Leap, the Gunks,
or in Connecticut. So Aaron's route was more enhanced
than the norm at the crag.

It hasn't led to its bolts being removed,
nor has it been popular, either. I had never seen any chalk on its
holds myself until I saw those photos....

Fair enough. I'm not here to say that Aaron is a bad guy or something
for one particular route he did several years ago. I've done a few
first ascents myself which did not turn out well. We try to learn
and move along in those cases.

Clint Cummins

I agree with Aaron that such "features" (i.e. enhanced holds)
do exist on some of the other routes at the crag.

Some motherf__er chipped holds on a fun little climb that I put up years ago at New Jack City (probably the only route requiring trad gear there). The start was hard 5.9 friction/angled edges, and I put two bolts close together (crack higher up). Stopped by last year and someone had chipped TONS of big holds up the previous crux start and removed the first bolt, apparently deciding to make the route a novice-face-climber-friendly route with a chiseled 5.5 start.

Next time I'm by (i.e. next winter), I'll take pics and send them to you, they'll be a good example of known chiseled holds. Compared to the piles of gunshells and broken glass at NJC it's pretty irrelevant, but it sure pissed me off. Everyone says "what do you expect at NJC?"...

"If you don't have something nice to say, don't say it." and I say "If you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk."

I climbed in the States for 6 months in 1995 and as I was based in SF spent quite a few days climbing at Jailhouse. I recall glue (one hold was called the cookie - a hold created by a cookie shaped hold glued in a slot to create an incut) and many other holds that were blatantly enhanced. It appears that this was the ethics used by some of the developers here. In their defence I do have to say though that the climbing at this cliff was brilliant and I enjoyed it alot.