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itakealot
Jul 8, 2003, 9:14 PM
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Last holiday weekend I was topping out and decided to be lowered off by my belayer on steel anchors. There are many anchors that I would rap off on, but the thing was this stranger yells up to me that I should not be repelling and not be lowering off the anchors.
Just to keep the universe in order I went ahead and rapped off, but by the time I got off rappel he was gone.
I got a name and that he has only climbed for a few months, but there is enough crap to deal with at the crag, and if you are a beginner keep your trap shut unless you know what you are talking about.
I am sure his intentions were good, but the delivery seemed pretty messed up.
I guess this should be filed under "unsolicited beta."
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kman
Jul 8, 2003, 9:20 PM
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Were you being lowered or did you rap off???? Were they rap hangers or normal ones? Are you also a newbie??
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jefffski
Jul 8, 2003, 9:32 PM
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here's what happens eventually.
http://www.hamline.edu/~mfarris/images/wornshut.jpg
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jman
Jul 8, 2003, 10:45 PM
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UH OH....here we go again with the same ole debate.
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trbrts
Jul 8, 2003, 10:46 PM
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Yeah you should see the anchors on the Italian Arete in Big Cottonwood. Getting real thin. But, I don't have problem with lowering off of the anchors of a sport route when you are cleaning it. If your having people run laps on a top rope through the chains that's not so cool. Stick a couple of quick draws on there!
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kalcario
Jul 8, 2003, 10:55 PM
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the general consensus of experienced (20+ years) climbers both on this site and otherwise is that saving wear and tear on fixed anchors is not worth the increased risk factor inherent in rappelling, this subject has been done to death on this site, on less than 100' high sport routes you set up top ropes with the rope running through your own biners but for cleaning you lower, rapping off sport routes is STUPID.
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iamthewallress
Jul 8, 2003, 11:01 PM
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Two issues as I see them here...
1. Whether or not lowering off of steel anchors is OK.
No comment.
2. Whether or not a newbie has a right to criticize someone with more experience that they feel is either doing something to a climbing area that they value.
The newbie has a right to an opinion and a responsibility to the area where they climb to (politely) share it with you.
My 2 newbie-ish cents worth.
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mcfoley
Jul 8, 2003, 11:06 PM
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No $hit! If we aren't supposed to lower off SPORT anchors, what the F are all these cols shuts and super shuts doing on the top of these sport routes...I donate money to the various .org's for anchor replacement so I'm gonna F'n lower off EVERY TIME!!!
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jt512
Jul 9, 2003, 3:57 AM
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In reply to: Two issues as I see them here... 1. Whether or not lowering off of steel anchors is OK. No comment. 2. Whether or not a newbie has a right to criticize someone with more experience that they feel is either doing something to a climbing area that they value. The newbie has a right to an opinion and a responsibility to the area where they climb to (politely) share it with you.
Except that the newbie was wrong. I can't believe the original poster listened to him. I'd have explained to him why he was wrong.
-Jay
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kmiyamoto
Jul 9, 2003, 2:27 PM
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So are you saying that you shouldn't rappel off of fixed anchors/bolts? I guess I'm confused. What IS the difference between lowering and rappelling? Lowering in my book is being lowered by your belayer after you have finished a climb.
When I feel like rappelling, I may hook a small sling into two anchors, set a masterpoint, and down I go. Is that wrong to do with anchors? Am I supposed to set up a natural anchor using a tree or boulder rather than using placed ones?
I guess I don't get the argument.
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jt512
Jul 9, 2003, 3:39 PM
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In reply to: So are you saying that you shouldn't rappel off of fixed anchors/bolts?
No, it's not that you shouldn't rap of fixed anchors, but it is acceptable to lower off sport anchors if you are the last person in your party to climb the route.
In reply to: I guess I'm confused. What IS the difference between lowering and rappelling? Lowering in my book is being lowered by your belayer after you have finished a climb.
That is correct.
In reply to: I guess I don't get the argument.
The argument is that it is "unethical" to lower directly off sport anchors because it wears the anchors, and therefore you should rap. It is true that lowering wears the anchors, but it is acceptable for the last person in the group to lower directly off the anchors. The first climber in the group should put draws on the anchors, and he and subsequent climbers should lower off the draws. The last person in the group takes down the draws, and normally lowers.
-Jay
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ljthawk
Jul 9, 2003, 3:45 PM
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Not to fuel another debate, but I still don't understand the resistance and view that rappeling is much more dangerous. Rappeling and getting on rappel is a skill, like belaying, that every climber should be proficient at or shouldn't be at the crag; if you are not you are inviting darwin to play a role in your life. Sure it can be dangerous, so can leading, retying in after threading the rope through closed shunts or rap rings, driving home when you are tired, or mouthing off to someone bigger then you. I actually prefer to rappel back down when I can because I don't have to worry about communicating with a belayer and depending on them, easier to just take care of it myself.
I don't know, maybe it's because I'm a caver as well and feel more comfortable at it. Compared to the potential situations in a cave (muddy, pounding water falls, sharp rock, etc), rappeling outside on a rock face is a walk in the park.
Yes steep overhanging routes can't be cleaned while rapping, then one must clip a leash to the other line and be lowered.
L.J.
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jt512
Jul 9, 2003, 4:02 PM
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In reply to: Not to fuel another debate, but I still don't understand the resistance and view that rappeling is much more dangerous.
When it comes right down to it, I think it is more a question of convenience than safety. If you don't have to thread the anchors, it is quicker and more convenient to lower than to rap. Even if you do have to thread the anchors, lowering saves the step of having to lower the rope to the ground, though admittedly, if you rap, you free up your belayer sooner.
-Jay
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wideguy
Jul 9, 2003, 4:07 PM
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My question, and I haven't seen mention of this on any of these Rap vs. lower threads, has anyone delved into what Kind of anchors could be lowered off from, if you agree that it's OK in the first place? I've seen a few sport spots where the top anchors are simply more bolts w/ hangers. Try lowering off those and you may be looking at a new rope rather quickly.
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mreardon
Jul 9, 2003, 4:08 PM
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In reply to: Not to fuel another debate, but I still don't understand the resistance and view that rappeling is much more dangerous.
Wear and tear on lowered v. rap off is done to death. But don't try to explain that rapping is less dangerous than lowering. Let's see:
LOWERING:
1. Put rope through open shuts/clip 'biners;
2. Have belayer lower.
RAPPING
1. Clip into cold shuts;
2. Clove hitch/Figure eight bite of rope and attach to harness to not drop rope, but now you have to hope the anchors are good and you have no back-up protection;
3. Untie;
4. Thread through anchor;
5. Pull rope through the anchor (providing some wear - kind of like lowering);
6. Make sure ends reach bottom evenly;
7. Put onto rappell;
8. Unclip anchor;
9. Lower.
Even if you have to untie and thread to lower off, you still have a bite of rope attached to you that is through the last bolt so you are never off the belay. Sheesh. Guess it's time to search for a shoe thread next. :D
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ljthawk
Jul 9, 2003, 4:44 PM
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mreardon,
When one unties to thread the rope through, I rarely see anyone tie a bite and clip it to a load supporting part of their harness, they usually tie a bite or clove hitch and attach it so it doesn't fall, not to support a fall. Many also have the belayer take them off of belay so they don't have to fight for slack.
Lowering off Closed Shunts / Rings
1. Clip into cold shuts;
2. Clove hitch/Figure eight bite of rope and attach to harness to not drop rope
3. Untie;
4. Thread through anchor;
5. Retie the rope to your harness
6. Be put back on belay and have all slack removed from the anchor (requires communication with another party / person)
8. Unclip anchor;
9. Be lowered by other person
There is a way to do this with untieing the rope from your harness as the last step by feeding a bite through the anchors and then tieing a bowline or follow through eight with the bite.
Also, threading an unweighted rope through the anchors has negligible wear. The wear comes from the pressure of a weighted rope being pulled across the anchors; simple mechanics. Furthermore, if you are worried about the anchors being not very good, that's even more reason to rap instead since the forces are lower then when being lowered.
I stand by my previous comments. The only reason it is more dangerous is because people aren't proficient at it. Proper use of leashes, tying knots in the rope if you don't think you pulled enough out, weighting the rappel device before unclipping leashes, and basic rope management skills are skills and judgement calls every climber must be comfortable with at the crags or they're inviting Darwin into their lives. If not comfortable, then they should find someone to teach them. I fully understand JT's "convenience" comment. I may not agree when people act out of convenience, but I at least understand it. True I sometimes lower, but have been making an effort to rap when I can.
L.J.
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kalcario
Jul 9, 2003, 4:59 PM
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*I stand by my previous comments. The only reason it is more dangerous is because people aren't proficient at it.*
Being proficient at it doesn't make it safer than lowering. Consider the rappeller-who-loses-conciousness scenario due to rockfall or other reasons, even using a prusik backup means the rappeller is hanging upsidedown unconcious 50' up or whatever. When things go bad rappelling they go REALLY bad, whereas an unconcious climber being lowered has a much better chance of getting to the ground quickly. Now I hear you saying, what if the belayer lowering the climber loses conciousness, but if the belayer is using a grigri he/she can let go of the rope and the device locks up and that situation can be dealt with accordingly.
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ljthawk
Jul 9, 2003, 6:29 PM
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In reply to: ...but if the belayer is using a grigri he/she can let go of the rope and the device locks up and that situation can be dealt with accordingly.
What if you and your partners don't use Gri Gri's? Heck if you use a gri gri you can't rappel unless you tie off / biner block one end so that you can wrap on a single strand and still pull the rope, not very hard but an additional step. Another option is to use a double rope munter, but now we are getting more advanced then the average joe.
or
What if a meteorite comes crashing down on the both of you, or aliens use their tractor beam to pull you off the rock and up into their ship for probing? What if your mother was chasing you around the crag with a frying pan?
We can all play the what if game.
L.J.
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maculated
Jul 9, 2003, 6:38 PM
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I'm a proponent of rapping off sport anchors, but in answering which anchors are ok to lower from:
Cold shuts are great, those little clips are beeeeeautiful. Those are the only ones that tempt me.
Open shuts scare the jiminy out of me in either case, but I guess lowering off those are good.
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markc
Jul 11, 2003, 7:47 PM
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In reply to: The argument is that it is "unethical" to lower directly off sport anchors because it wears the anchors, and therefore you should rap. It is true that lowering wears the anchors, but it is acceptable for the last person in the group to lower directly off the anchors. The first climber in the group should put draws on the anchors, and he and subsequent climbers should lower off the draws. The last person in the group takes down the draws, and normally lowers.
Sound advice I wish more people followed. I started a thread elsewhere a little while back about people lowering through fixed anchors. While I prefer to rappel, I don't have a big problem with one person lowering off fixed anchors when a party is done. However, I've seen inexperienced groups take turns on a sport route, with everyone lowering off anchors. They were ignorant of their impact, and dismissive of advice. My beef isn't with experienced climbers making educated choices, but uninformed or misinformed new climbers that inherit and perpetuate loose ethics.
mark
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gekko
Jul 11, 2003, 8:51 PM
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This is a little off the topic ["getting lectured by a newbie"] and I don't want to comment about rapping/lowering at this time but I wanted to call something to the attention of those who do choose to lower off of sport climbs
In reply to: When one unties to thread the rope through, I rarely see anyone tie a bite and clip it to a load supporting part of their harness, they usually tie a bite or clove hitch and attach it so it doesn't fall, not to support a fall.
What you said is very true, most climbers planning on lowering on sport routes clip a bite into their gear loops, which are not meant to hold their weight. One of my buddies had done just that, he was in slings on hangers and had an eight on a bite to keep the rope from falling. Before he had tied back in, the bolt holding one of the hangers pulled out about a half inch. He did get down safely, but sometimes things happen that we don't expect, and I would encourage anyone who is preparing to lower to clip the bite into the belay loop or a girth hitched biner instead of a gear loop.
The chances of both bolts failing or one bolt and the other sling failing are prolly really slight, but it doesn't take any additional time or effort to clip the bite to a load bearing structure instead of a gear loop. That way if the anchor happens to fail while you are in slings, the bolt before the anchors would catch making it nothing more harmful than a lead fall.
Redundancy is a key element of safety.
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dano
Jul 11, 2003, 10:00 PM
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As a sport-climber turned boulderer turned 'hey that's right i own a rope' returnee to the land of the quickdraw I'm glad to see some kind of consensus here lately that the last person to come off of a sport climb 'can' choose to be lowered off rather than rappel, but that groups should always TR (and therefore lower off of draws or such).
I'm in the process of teaching my girlfriend to lead, and so am first teaching her how to clean and also lower off shuts. For her, and for me, it's step one of hopefully getting her to rap some day. Letting her follow, clean, and lower off shuts keeps me from having to lead, belay her, and then tr the route to clean it. doing laps may be good for my endurance, but tires me the f- out.
anybody remember when they started to lead? did you learn to clean and lower off of shuts first or did you clean and rap? maybe i'm being too cautious with her?
buehler?
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jt512
Jul 11, 2003, 10:07 PM
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In reply to: anybody remember when they started to lead? did you learn to clean and lower off of shuts first or did you clean and rap? maybe i'm being too cautious with her? buehler?
It's hard to teach rappelling safely at a sport crag. You'd want to be up at the anchors checking her set up and then belaying her somehow on her first rap. There are better places to do that than your typical sport crag. Teach her to thread and lower. You can teach he how to rappel later when you're somewhere where it is safer to do so.
-Jay
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dnruss
Jul 14, 2003, 3:03 PM
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i did my first rap at a sport crag after being lowered all the time and i dont really notice a difference in the process other than i either control myself, or my belayer controls me. what the big deal????
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vertical_reality
Jul 14, 2003, 3:46 PM
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[Edit] I put in a question before reading the whole thread and it was answered in an earlier post.
Sorry,
Mike
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