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tenn_dawg
Jul 16, 2003, 7:46 PM
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I couldn't get the link to work, but I assume that the quicklinks at it cost $6.00.
If that is correct, that's a damn expensive quicklink. I would just assume leave an old biner that cost about the same price, and wouldn't have to worry with carying a piece specifically for bailing.
Travis
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robbovius
Jul 16, 2003, 7:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Dingus, most likely what's happening is the threads are corroding together over the time and exposure out-of-doors. I've had this same thing happen on smaller screwlinks I've used as locks for inside yard gate latches, that see no load at all... Yup, that's the deal. I bet loading them contributes too though. But what do you think of me tightening them with a wrench? Good? Bad? Who cares? DMT
jeez I dunno about loading them having any effect, I routinely rap off mine after settign my anchors, and just rapping off, or taking up and lowering on TR (with the minimal fall factor TR ensures) Iv'e never had a problem unscrewing mine fingers only, and this is after four months steady use...
If you REALLY don't want others unscrewing them and taking them off, wrenching them tight is the way to go, just don't strip the threads ;-)
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aireq
Jul 16, 2003, 7:54 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Ever since I reallized that I could rap off a plain old sling though, I haven't bothered leaving anything metalic behind. :roll: Leaving slings behind on bolts is considered unacceptable at every crag I've climbed. Leave a biner, or suck it up and get to the anchors. -Jay
I dont' have experience with removing or leaving either. But it would seem to me that it would be a lot easier for someone to pull a sling from a bolt then unscrew a quick link. Expecialy if it's been there for a while. Just curious why leaving slings behind is more unacceptable then leaving quick links?
eric
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coldclimb
Jul 16, 2003, 7:55 PM
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umm, fear, quicklinks are used in climbing situations for bailing or use at the anchors, which means there's only gonna be a few hundred pounds on them at most. They're not being used in place of carabiners for lead climbing (I hope).
On another note, ever looked at the quickdraws hung in the gym? I dunno about the rest of the world, but the gym here, on the wall side of each draw, has (gasp) a quicklink!!!1 :wink:
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robbovius
Jul 16, 2003, 8:00 PM
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In reply to: umm, fear, quicklinks are used in climbing situations for bailing or use at the anchors, which means there's only gonna be a few hundred pounds on them at most. They're not being used in place of carabiners for lead climbing (I hope). On another note, ever looked at the quickdraws hung in the gym? I dunno about the rest of the world, but the gym here, on the wall side of each draw, has (gasp) a quicklink!!!1 :wink:
Cold yeah! the gym I did all my training in last winter used 3/8s screwlinks on oth ends of the anchor chains, and guess what the ropes were passing thru? yup, an opposed pair of 3/8s screw links. ;-)
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fear
Jul 16, 2003, 8:04 PM
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Do what you want.... If your life is worth a $2.00 link, so be it.
I was also referring to links outside, where real climbing takes place. There is rain, ice, dirt, salts, etc.... that can corrode cheesy steel in no time flat.
Also don't look to your local gym for climbing standards.
-Fear.....
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jerrygarcia
Jul 16, 2003, 8:09 PM
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In reply to: Also don't look to your local gym for climbing standards. -Fear.....
I wish more people would think this way. Only problem is most of the "new" climbers come from gyms. Not downing that, just that a lot of the people "training" them dont know much outside of a gym themselves wich can be bad.
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coldclimb
Jul 16, 2003, 8:14 PM
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I figure if the gym uses them for lead climbing, which they do here, and they haven't broken them, then they should be ok for bailing, wouldn't you think? :roll: lol....
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jt512
Jul 16, 2003, 8:25 PM
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If I were installing quicklink anchors I'd tighten them up so that they could not be unscrewed by hand. I don't recall the figures -- I knew them at one time from a parachute riggers class -- but, unscrewed quick links are weak, and I'd be concerned about someone rapping or lowering off them without screwing them back up. The rule in rigger's school was tighten by hand plus one quarter turn with a wrench.
-Jay
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timstich
Jul 16, 2003, 9:23 PM
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In reply to: I haven't compared Bruce's prices with Alex's, but here is another source of "Mallion Rapides" http://www.onrope1.com/PDFs/Mallion_Rapides.pdf L.J.
Alex who?
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timstich
Jul 16, 2003, 9:26 PM
Post #36 of 67
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In reply to: Just curious why leaving slings behind is more unacceptable then leaving quick links?
Several reasons, but one reason is for aesthetics. A mass of rotting, faded slings is pretty ugly. Quicklinks take much longer to turn to crap.
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b_fost
Jul 16, 2003, 10:07 PM
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rradam wrote:
In reply to: I scored two boxes of 60 1/4" Stainless Steel ones, that are Nuclear Grade here at work.
lol. nuclear grade bail biners. YOU ROCK ADAM!!!
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 16, 2003, 10:22 PM
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weather we like them or not, cheap quick links are used comonly as a component of rap systems at allmost every crag in the USA. They are often used as rings on slings or to connect chains to bolts or by themselfs on bolts. Has anyone got documented evidence of failure of a 3/8th" or 10mm quick link used as a rappel anchor. I have heard of many cases of old 1/4 in bolts failing as well as old tat failing. I have heard of rusty chain failing but the diameter was not mentioned and I seriously doubt it was 3/8th logging chain as I have done a lot of logging with very old 3/8th chain and that stuff is STRONG. The only failed chain story I know of is the Living Large/Largo story and that was a long time ago. He could have been talking about some pretty cheesy chain to start with? I know I have broken climbing rope logging but never 3/8thin chain 8)
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ljthawk
Jul 16, 2003, 11:48 PM
Post #39 of 67
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In reply to: In reply to: I haven't compared Bruce's prices with Alex's, but here is another source of "Mallion Rapides" http://www.onrope1.com/PDFs/Mallion_Rapides.pdf L.J. Alex who?
Alex Sproul, Owner of IMO (Inner Mountain Outfitters), the vendor jerrygarcia posted. Bruce Smith is the owner of On Rope 1, the vendor I posted. Bruce Smith is also co author of "On Rope". Both are fairly nice guys.
L.J.
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robbovius
Jul 17, 2003, 12:31 AM
Post #40 of 67
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In reply to: Do what you want.... If your life is worth a $2.00 link, so be it. I was also referring to links outside, where real climbing takes place. There is rain, ice, dirt, salts, etc.... that can corrode cheesy steel in no time flat. Also don't look to your local gym for climbing standards. -Fear.....
Well, last I looked, all the crags I climb on regularly were, ummm, outside ;-)
And, MY links are $4.98! and in each anchor system I set up there's 6 of 'em, so that's almost 30 bucks! that's at LEAST as much as any rap anchor I ever saw with UIAA cert stuff...;-) so each of us is trusting out $30 anchor sytems not to fail. Tell me, are those chains in the anchors UIAA cert?
what we got going on here is, in large part, simple prejudice against non-climbing-specific parts, as though having the UIAA cert is a magic talisman against failure...
LOL! This is almost as good as a grigri vs ATC thread ;-)
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 17, 2003, 12:50 AM
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Why use six? the most I use is4 and most often 2. I do prefer the Fixe ring anchors, however I can't allways get my hands on them. If I do a rt on the fly I usualy don't have the patience to wait for mail order. Quick links and chains are usualy about the same price as a set of the fixe ring anchors so cost realy is not a factor as much as availability.
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philbox
Moderator
Jul 17, 2003, 2:05 AM
Post #42 of 67
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I don`t have a problem with quicklinks per se but I do have a problem trusting the really cheap unstamped hardware store variety. Yeah mebbe lowering off one as a bail option but we have people setting anchors with these pieces of death. Yeah I might be paranoid but I`m really about pushing for quality hardware to be used on the routes we put up so that they can be enjoyed for a great many years. I`ll try to get those failure specs out of the guy who tested them but it will take a while.
Excellent discussion so far, I apreciate the input from everyone.
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pico23
Jul 17, 2003, 2:57 AM
Post #43 of 67
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In reply to: Do what you want.... If your life is worth a $2.00 link, so be it. I was also referring to links outside, where real climbing takes place. There is rain, ice, dirt, salts, etc.... that can corrode cheesy steel in no time flat. Also don't look to your local gym for climbing standards. -Fear.....
Just to let you all know, I was looking at links for the last few days and tonight I cam across some made in a ISO 9001 certified factory, most of your climbing gear is made in ISO 9001 factories.
Anyway, I did the math and even though I consistently rap off of quick links at rap stations I don't see a benefit to them unless you are installing a station. That is they are two heavy to haul with you consistently and cost almost the same as a rolled aluminum rappel ring.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 17, 2003, 3:16 AM
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the benifit is that you can attach them to bolts to hold logging chain when setting anchors. the problem with rigging bolts with webbing or cord is that it fades with the sun so people add more and sooner or later you have so much tat that you can't even get a biner into the bolt and are forced to clip the tat. I cary a knife now but still feel it is better to use chains. they are strong and don't clutter the station. I really prefer the fixe rings but don't allways have them. the good thing is if you use stud type bolts you can allways add the rings at a later date.
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tonydevo
Jul 17, 2003, 4:31 AM
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I just did some informal testing for you guys regarding quick links. Here' the results:
5/16" Carbon Steel unrated home depot quick links
fixe 4mm hanger
10.5mm sterling gym rope (stiff)
25 foot factor .75 fall (We measured exactly and calculated the FF))
gri-gri belay
180lbs climber (I am the UIAAdrop mass! yeah baby)
In the Gym I work at we set up a lead wall with the links mentioned above and took five equal falls onto the same anchor point and then inspected the link. After five falls there was no visible damage and no deformation. next we open the link so there was a 5mm gap between the thread and sleeve. 3 more equal falls finally deformed the link to the point of uselessness ie. bent badly but still holding.
In conclusion:
Our test was not remotely scientific but the results speak for themselves. These are the small, thin 5/16" links and they held all that repeated force. Make your own judgements but I feel safe rapping off 2 links.
The best part of all this?
I get paid to do this.
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robbovius
Jul 17, 2003, 12:01 PM
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In reply to: I just did some informal testing for you guys regarding quick links. Here' the results: 5/16" Carbon Steel unrated home depot quick links fixe 4mm hanger 10.5mm sterling gym rope (stiff) 25 foot factor .75 fall (We measured exactly and calculated the FF)) gri-gri belay 180lbs climber (I am the UIAAdrop mass! yeah baby) In the Gym I work at we set up a lead wall with the links mentioned above and took five equal falls onto the same anchor point and then inspected the link. After five falls there was no visible damage and no deformation. next we open the link so there was a 5mm gap between the thread and sleeve. 3 more equal falls finally deformed the link to the point of uselessness ie. bent badly but still holding. In conclusion: Our test was not remotely scientific but the results speak for themselves. These are the small, thin 5/16" links and they held all that repeated force. Make your own judgements but I feel safe rapping off 2 links. The best part of all this? I get paid to do this.
you have the kewlest job, ever. ;-)
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robbovius
Jul 17, 2003, 12:15 PM
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In reply to: Why use six? the most I use is4 and most often 2. I do prefer the Fixe ring anchors, however I can't allways get my hands on them. If I do a rt on the fly I usualy don't have the patience to wait for mail order. Quick links and chains are usualy about the same price as a set of the fixe ring anchors so cost realy is not a factor as much as availability.
I think the disparity here is that we're talking about rap anchors and toprope anchors respectively.
The crag I go to ost regularly requires a lot of long slings (25-30 feet) anchored mopstly from trees. Rather than girth-hitching the slings (mine are all water-knotted into loops) I'll wrap one end of the sling loop around the tree and attach it to itself using wo opposed 3/8ths screwlinks. I know that one will do the job strengthwise, but following the philosophy of redundancy, it just makes me feel better to have two. I do the same for the second anchor sling.
if I need to I'll extend the 1st and second slings by girth-hitching in other web loops end-to-end, and when I get the proper length over the crag edge, set up the rope/belay end with two opposed 1/2 inch screw links.
so, 6 links in total. I truly believe this is overkill as far as strength of the links. ALL of mine are stamped with the WLL.
I've found myself FAR more nervous on other folks toprope anchors, where i've gotten to the top and found a SINGLE screwgate biner hanging from the slings. *gulp*
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tonydevo
Jul 17, 2003, 3:19 PM
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A single locking biner is adequate for all toproping applications unless there is a risk of the sleeve opening. 2 solid anchors equalised with a locking carabiner or 2 is the guiding standard around here. Petzl makes some nice autolocking and Tri-act biners that would be ideal for paranoid toproper. :wink:
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brianinslc
Jul 17, 2003, 4:09 PM
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In reply to: I don`t have a problem with quicklinks per se but I do have a problem trusting the really cheap unstamped hardware store variety. Yeah mebbe lowering off one as a bail option but we have people setting anchors with these pieces of death. Excellent discussion so far, I apreciate the input from everyone.
Eeeee...
So, I rail against hardware store cold shuts on one thread...and...uhhh...
I use quick links from the hardware store without reservation...in this thread...
Phil, I just don't see them as being, uhh, bad. A friend tested 2 of the thin 1/4" inch ones from the hardware store. I was nervious about using them to rap on (with skinny 8mm cords) so, he tested. Both broke above 6200 lbs within around 10 or 20 lbs of each other.
I use as a minimum the 5/16" ones. If I can get the 3/8" ones, I'd prefer them.
Most climbing gyms I've been to use them to attach draws to routes. And, in over ten years of belonging to one gym, and frequenting many others, I've never heard of a rapid link failing. Biners, yes, but not the links. Thats a bunch of data points (as, at least in my gym, folks take falls all the time on them, over and over and over...
Most of the cheapies have a SWL (safe working load) stamped in them. In industrial lifting, I think folks in the rigging industry buy them and use as per rated right off the shelf. They are WAY overdesigned for climbing.
Dingus, I like Jay's rule of thumb. 1/4 turn past hand tight or thereabouts. I also add a bit of loctite if I'm worried about them going bye bye (although some folks will torque the piss out of them anyhow, ruining the hanger and maybe damaging the bolt). If they are more than handtight, shouldn't get ripped. If someone really wants to steal them, they'd have a wrench anyhoo. I wouldn't overtighten them either. Too much stress. Also, I think a layer of loctite adds a bit of corrosion protection to the threads too.
I dislike seeing them as bail evidence on climbs. Folks should just pony up and leave a biner. Price to pay for tryin' something you can't do, har har. Waaaay easier to clean too. Bail booty!
Hmmm.... I think hardware store quick links (rapides, rapid links, quickies) are fine. Especially (preferably) if they have a SWL stamped into them. Especially if folks are using 5/16" as a minimum.
At the recent "bolt-a-rama" in Castle Rocks in Idaho (see your latest Rock and Ice magazine for details) for instance, the ranger was very picky that all hardware be top shelf. This included at a min 3/8" stainless steel bolts and prepainted stainless steel hangers. The top anchors of choice? Plain ol' galvanized steel hardware store 3/8" chain and quick links (painted to match).
FWI, for all you fixed hardware painters out there...I found that Rustoleum makes an nice latex primer for galvanized steel. Can't quite recall the name, but, comes in a handy can (instead of a spray can) and quite a volume for the money (around 6 bucks). Is off gray, easy to clean (water based so can clean up in the sink), no excessive fumes, and seems to bond well. Then, oil based standard spray on topcoat to match.
This method works waaay better than trying to get an oil based primer and/or topcoat to stick, and is waaay better than the old school soakin' of hardware in vinegar (eek, ruins the zinc coating and brings on the rust in a rapido fashion).
Anyone with industial rigging experience? I think common to use off the shelf quick links for overhead lifting, at the rating stamped on the link.
French links? Are these really made in France? Should we be calling them "freedom links"? Har har... My money says there the same stock, same process, and if we're lucky, they get a bit of load testing? Petzl rep out there (Hank?)? I'll bet they just cost more. Mallion. French for overpriced quick links? Ha.
Stainless quick links...if anyone has any in 5/16" min that they get at a good price, PLEASE let me know!
Phil, TnT said they had a great time with you down yonder...er..under...!
Yee haa...
Brian in SLC
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jt512
Jul 17, 2003, 4:12 PM
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In reply to: I just did some informal testing for you guys regarding quick links. Here' the results: 5/16" Carbon Steel unrated home depot quick links fixe 4mm hanger 10.5mm sterling gym rope (stiff) 25 foot factor .75 fall (We measured exactly and calculated the FF)) gri-gri belay 180lbs climber (I am the UIAAdrop mass! yeah baby) In the Gym I work at we set up a lead wall with the links mentioned above and took five equal falls onto the same anchor point and then inspected the link. After five falls there was no visible damage and no deformation. next we open the link so there was a 5mm gap between the thread and sleeve. 3 more equal falls finally deformed the link to the point of uselessness ie. bent badly but still holding. In conclusion: Our test was not remotely scientific but the results speak for themselves. These are the small, thin 5/16" links and they held all that repeated force. Make your own judgements but I feel safe rapping off 2 links. The best part of all this? I get paid to do this.
And the worst part is that the typical uninformed newbie user of this website will take your results seriously. Your results prove ablsolutely nothing about the safety of quick links, and anybody who relies on the results of such informal testing could be in for a big surprise. Your test conditions were not nearly well-enough controlled, and you only tested a single link. You have no way of knowing the range of strengths of these links are. Maybe the one you tested was unusally strong, or maybe not, you can't tell from your test.
What your test does show, which was what I was worried about (see my earlier post), is that open links are too weak to be reliable. Should a link inadvertantly open (and I've seen some on anchors that have) the link could break or deform to the point where the rope could slip out.
-Jay
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