|
tradmanclimbs
Jul 13, 2003, 11:32 PM
Post #1 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
Many of us use hardware store quick links to rig climbs. These are common in many aplications. Often seen as rap rings on slings or in pairs on bolts, or to attach chains to bolts. The 3/8th" varity are usualy stamped with a rateing of 2600lbs next to the made in Malajsia or china or tiawan. I have used and installed them many times and they seem to work. They are usualy zink plated. Many of the rap stations at Rumny have these and they seem to work well in those high traffic situations. There were some ce certified French quick links on the market but at $7.50 per no one used them. Has anyone ever heard of a cheap hardwear store 3/8th in. quick link failing?
|
|
|
|
|
philbox
Moderator
Jul 14, 2003, 1:12 AM
Post #2 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 13105
|
Do not use hardware store quicklinks for any reason other than holding some curtains together at home. I have seen quicklinks destroyed in testing at extremely low loads. They are not made out of the right steel for doing the job that climbers require, they are a soft steel that is quite malleable and will fail when shockloaded. Do yourself a favour and buy the more expensive Maillons which have a rating. I would never, ever, ever consider placing my life at risk of one of these generic cheap Chinese/Taiwanese junks quicklinks.
|
|
|
|
|
freudian
Jul 14, 2003, 1:21 AM
Post #3 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 23, 2002
Posts: 236
|
I have three $2.00 hardware store chain-link replacements. I keep them with me as "Bail" pieces. In case I'm in over my head on a sport route, I figure I can screw one of these onto the hanger and lower or rappel of it, then retrieve my other proo on the way down.
What do you people think of that?
Andrew
|
|
|
|
|
philbox
Moderator
Jul 14, 2003, 1:27 AM
Post #4 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 13105
|
The issue I believe is that you may feel quite comfortable using the cheap $2 hardware store quicklink but then the newb who goes up there and booties this will end up using it in an unintended way, perhaps shockloading it in an anchor and will take the plummet. I know I`m painting an extreme picture but I do believe these pieces of death have no place in the sport of climbing whatsoever.
|
|
|
|
|
canadianclimber
Jul 14, 2003, 1:33 AM
Post #5 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2002
Posts: 43
|
I'm not sure if these are the things that you are referring to but MEC in Canada sells these screw links for only $3.50 Canadian. They might not be as cheap as ones sold at the hardware store but they are more reliable, and still cheaper than a carabiner.
|
|
|
|
|
coldclimb
Jul 14, 2003, 2:29 AM
Post #6 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 14, 2002
Posts: 6909
|
I definately have no problem using them to lower off, as they are obviously way strong enough for that, and if I have to bail, a n00b is not going to make it that far on that route. Anyone who doesn't know enough to know that bail gear, especially quicklinks, is not to be used for stuff other than bailing or low-load stuff doesn't know enough to be climbing.
Ever since I reallized that I could rap off a plain old sling though, I haven't bothered leaving anything metalic behind. :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Jul 14, 2003, 3:29 AM
Post #7 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
You guy's can get on your high horse all you want about how hardware store quick links are cheese but the fact is that they are extremly common both as rap rings on slings and as the connectors for chains on bolts as well as the set up with two quick links on a bolt so the second quick link orients out from the rock for smooth rope action. Many of the anchors at rumny have this set up and have seen them at the NRG as well as pleanty of other places. I have no doubt that they are not as strong as CE rated gear but the question is. Has anyone heard of a 3/8th in quicklink failing in a climbing situation? If so how old was it? Was the accident a rapel failure or was the quick link subjected to a lead fall? It allways freaks me out when a desperate leader clips their draw into the bailoff link at the crux caus they are too pumped to get into the hanger. I usualy say somthing to the effect of " dude, you might want to take a hang and clip that to the real bolt hanger caus if that cheeesy quick link blows you might deck" I feel pretty good about rapping off of 3/8th in chains as long as they are equalized. The chances of both quick links failing are slim.
|
|
|
|
|
mikeehartley
Jul 14, 2003, 3:31 AM
Post #8 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 25, 2003
Posts: 118
|
I have used rapid links of various types in both industrial, ropes course, and climbing applications for 20 years now. It is true that their quality varies greatly. The French, Mallion rapide, do seem to be the best and they have a well established history of use in caving and climbing applications. They are what I use and sell for critical applications. At the minimum I would only recommend that you use links that have the Safe Working Load Limit stamped on them.
Here's the reality part though - if you are using a 3/8"/10mm or greater link AND THE GATE IS SCREWED ALL THE WAY CLOSED, you will make history if it fails on you. Failure of a link of this size from the loads we are talking about is unheard of in my experience. This is especially true given their typical use as a rappel link or for backing off of a route. Even when used for top roping you have a huge safety factor. Their is simply no comparison to the cheap aluminum rap rings that are still common.
So, I recommend buying quality, lubricating BOTH set of thread (only one is visible to your eye) when leaving at a station, but lower with confidence off of any link 10mm or greater.
|
|
|
|
|
pico23
Jul 15, 2003, 6:52 PM
Post #9 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 14, 2003
Posts: 2378
|
In reply to: . Their is simply no comparison to the cheap aluminum rap rings that are still common. So, I recommend buying quality, lubricating BOTH set of thread (only one is visible to your eye) when leaving at a station, but lower with confidence off of any link 10mm or greater.
If you are talking about the rolled and not welded aluminum rings on the market, those suckers are stronger then the old steel welded ones. There is nothing to fail on them since they are a single piece of metal. They look flimsy and I usually prefer more then one for redundancy but those things won't fail unless they wear out from ropes being pulled through.
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Jul 15, 2003, 7:02 PM
Post #10 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
I scored two boxes of 60 1/4" Stainless Steel ones, that are Nuclear Grade here at work. I can actually get as many as I want. Can't remember the exact rating on them without looking, but one is hella strong, and I always use two when I set up a permanant rap station, or replace worn rap rings.
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
Jul 15, 2003, 7:07 PM
Post #11 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
In reply to: ...Do yourself a favour and buy the more expensive Maillons which have a rating. I would never, ever, ever consider placing my life at risk of one of these generic cheap Chinese/Taiwanese junks quicklinks.
Mallion Rapides. They used to sell those at the hardware store believe it or not. Same ones they sell to climbers I would assume. Good heads up about the shiot cheap quicklinks there, Phil. So do you have an inside line on discount Rapides by any chance? Was going to restock and might as well use the good stuff. If not, I think I can locate a source in Llano and do a bulk order.
|
|
|
|
|
philbox
Moderator
Jul 15, 2003, 9:34 PM
Post #12 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 13105
|
In reply to: In reply to: ...Do yourself a favour and buy the more expensive Maillons which have a rating. I would never, ever, ever consider placing my life at risk of one of these generic cheap Chinese/Taiwanese junks quicklinks. Mallion Rapides. They used to sell those at the hardware store believe it or not. Same ones they sell to climbers I would assume. Good heads up about the shiot cheap quicklinks there, Phil. So do you have an inside line on discount Rapides by any chance? Was going to restock and might as well use the good stuff. If not, I think I can locate a source in Llano and do a bulk order.
Nope, I don`t have an inside cheap way of getting Maillon Rapides, well, I can get them from a mate in a gear shop but sending em from Oz to the US would be counterproductive.
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
Jul 15, 2003, 9:37 PM
Post #13 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
In reply to: Nope, I don`t have an inside cheap way of getting Maillon Rapides, well, I can get them from a mate in a gear shop but sending em from Oz to the US would be counterproductive.
Of course, dude. Didn't mean to suggest that. It's cool. I can get them at a discount from someone.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jul 15, 2003, 11:23 PM
Post #14 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: I have three $2.00 hardware store chain-link replacements. I keep them with me as "Bail" pieces. In case I'm in over my head on a sport route, I figure I can screw one of these onto the hanger and lower or rappel of it, then retrieve my other proo on the way down. What do you people think of that?
I think that some other climber will have to unscrew your quicklink to remove. This can be especially difficult after the link has been weighted. I think it would be more courteous to bail off a biner.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jul 15, 2003, 11:25 PM
Post #15 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: Ever since I reallized that I could rap off a plain old sling though, I haven't bothered leaving anything metalic behind. :roll:
Leaving slings behind on bolts is condidered unacceptable at every crag I've climbed. Leave a biner, or suck it up and get to the anchors.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
russwalling
Jul 16, 2003, 6:31 PM
Post #16 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 12, 2002
Posts: 239
|
In reply to: Do not use hardware store quicklinks for any reason other than holding some curtains together at home. I have seen quicklinks destroyed in testing at extremely low loads. They are not made out of the right steel for doing the job that climbers require, they are a soft steel that is quite malleable and will fail when shockloaded. Do yourself a favour and buy the more expensive Maillons which have a rating. I would never, ever, ever consider placing my life at risk of one of these generic cheap Chinese/Taiwanese junks quicklinks.
Interesting toughts Phil.... perhaps a bit paranoid though.
A 3/8" quick link, plated steel, is rated to 2100 lbs as a WLL (working load limit) The working load limit is is approx. 20% of the average break strength which allows for a 5 to 1 safety factor. 5 x 2100 =10500lbs.
A 316 stainless steel link of the same size has a WLL of 3200 lbs, and a BS of 16000lbs.
Even if we decide they are lying to make the product look good, and use a 2.5 to 3x safety factor, one would think this would be adequate for a rappel. On the unit it will usually say what the WLL is for the item. Check this out in the hardware store for maximum safety and avoid plastic quick links.
adios,
Russ
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Jul 16, 2003, 6:42 PM
Post #17 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
I have some questions for the quick link scholars here!
I set an anchor last weekend and used hardware store quicklinks. I fully expect folks to lower off these anchors and wanted a removable/replaceable system.
OK, fine and dandy, even if it is a bit expensive...
But I don't want just anyone coming along and casually lifting those links for their own project. So I tightened em up as tight as I could with a hand wrench. Sans wrench, they won't be stolen.
I have noted that with new quicklinks a climber can unscrew them and pass the rope through without untying. However, at the sport havens I frequent, a short time out of doors, under working loads, renders these quicklinks difficult to open at best. Most of them seem frozen within 6 months or so.
So... what are the opinions of this fine group on all this? Do you expect to be able to unscrew anchor quicklinks to pass your rope through? If so, how do you keep them that way? Do people steal them frequently? I have yet to see an older quicklink I could open with just my hands. And did I screw up by tightening them with a wrench? (get it...screw up??? Hah! I just KILL myself sometimes!)
Your thoughs?
Cheers,
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
Jul 16, 2003, 6:44 PM
Post #18 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
Thanks Russ,
Sayyyy. Shouldn't you be drinking vodka and sewing something from the land of that fine drink? Watch that needle and your fingers.
Urp.
|
|
|
|
|
robbovius
Jul 16, 2003, 6:47 PM
Post #19 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 8406
|
In reply to: ...I have seen quicklinks destroyed in testing at extremely low loads..., they are a soft steel that is quite malleable and will fail when shockloaded. .
I routinely use an opposed pair of 1/2 zinc plated steel screw links in place of aluminum screw-gate biners on my toprope setups and have no fear of them failing. WLL stamped in is 3360 lbs
I use opposed pairs of 3/8ths screwlinks to set up my anchor slings, and adjust the slings to equalize.
I'd be curious to see the data/numbers you're talking about. these screwlinks are beefy enough that I'd expect that any climbing shock load high enough to separate one of these screw links - threaded all the way closed - would either snap anchor slings, snap the rope or break the climber's back at the pelvis.
Dingus, most likely what's happening is the threads are corroding together over the time and exposure out-of-doors. I've had this same thing happen on smaller screwlinks I've used as locks for inside yard gate latches, that see no load at all...
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Jul 16, 2003, 7:06 PM
Post #20 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: Dingus, most likely what's happening is the threads are corroding together over the time and exposure out-of-doors. I've had this same thing happen on smaller screwlinks I've used as locks for inside yard gate latches, that see no load at all...
Yup, that's the deal. I bet loading them contributes too though.
But what do you think of me tightening them with a wrench? Good? Bad? Who cares?
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
jerrygarcia
Jul 16, 2003, 7:07 PM
Post #21 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 837
|
Ive been into vertical caving since 92' and have seen tons of applications for screw links/mallion rapids. You can get them from lots of different places also. If you want a trusted place that I have been buying from try http://www.caves.org/imo. Click on "carabiners and then scroll to the bottom of the page. Tons of different sizes for different applications and you can get steel or galvanized.
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
Jul 16, 2003, 7:29 PM
Post #22 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
In reply to: Ive been into vertical caving since 92' and have seen tons of applications for screw links/mallion rapids....
Yeah, I can get them from GGG in Llano. I use one for my minirack.
|
|
|
|
|
ljthawk
Jul 16, 2003, 7:36 PM
Post #23 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 2, 2002
Posts: 245
|
I haven't compared Bruce's prices with Alex's, but here is another source of "Mallion Rapides"
http://www.onrope1.com/PDFs/Mallion_Rapides.pdf
L.J.
|
|
|
|
|
fear
Jul 16, 2003, 7:38 PM
Post #24 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 475
|
People take the dumbest shortcuts....
Don't climb or think of climbing on unmarked, no-name $2.00 quicklinks unless it's an emergency with no other options and dire consequences. I would hope you think your life is worth more than doing something that stupid. Sure it will probably hold......but...
Go with quicklinks that are actually tested with a name and stuff stamped on them. That should go without saying....
My personal favorite site for stainless steel hardware:
http://www.bosunsupplies.com/products2.cfm?product=S0160
I've always used the 5/16 version. WLL of 2000 pounds which means it'll break at much more than 6,000 which is long after you're already dead. I've also used them off-roading doing all kinds of lifting/winching and general abuse that you'll never approach climbing.
Six bucks, not too heavy. You life and that of others is worth at least that.
If you're looking to fix them, don't overtighten them with a wrench, this can weaken them(although I wouldn't worry too much about it for climbing applications). Use red loctite instead and just snug them up with a wrench.
That site sells stainless fasteners of all kinds including chain which is very nice.....
-Fear
|
|
|
|
|
troutboy
Jul 16, 2003, 7:45 PM
Post #25 of 67
(9042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 25, 2003
Posts: 903
|
Seems fine to me. As you say, they usually become too tight to unscrew by hand anyway. I usually rap or lower by using the the Figure-8 onto my belay loop method anyway, so I don't need to open the links.
TS
|
|
|
|
|
tenn_dawg
Jul 16, 2003, 7:46 PM
Post #26 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 14, 2002
Posts: 3045
|
I couldn't get the link to work, but I assume that the quicklinks at it cost $6.00.
If that is correct, that's a damn expensive quicklink. I would just assume leave an old biner that cost about the same price, and wouldn't have to worry with carying a piece specifically for bailing.
Travis
|
|
|
|
|
robbovius
Jul 16, 2003, 7:51 PM
Post #27 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 8406
|
In reply to: In reply to: Dingus, most likely what's happening is the threads are corroding together over the time and exposure out-of-doors. I've had this same thing happen on smaller screwlinks I've used as locks for inside yard gate latches, that see no load at all... Yup, that's the deal. I bet loading them contributes too though. But what do you think of me tightening them with a wrench? Good? Bad? Who cares? DMT
jeez I dunno about loading them having any effect, I routinely rap off mine after settign my anchors, and just rapping off, or taking up and lowering on TR (with the minimal fall factor TR ensures) Iv'e never had a problem unscrewing mine fingers only, and this is after four months steady use...
If you REALLY don't want others unscrewing them and taking them off, wrenching them tight is the way to go, just don't strip the threads ;-)
|
|
|
|
|
aireq
Jul 16, 2003, 7:54 PM
Post #28 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 7, 2002
Posts: 43
|
In reply to: In reply to: Ever since I reallized that I could rap off a plain old sling though, I haven't bothered leaving anything metalic behind. :roll: Leaving slings behind on bolts is considered unacceptable at every crag I've climbed. Leave a biner, or suck it up and get to the anchors. -Jay
I dont' have experience with removing or leaving either. But it would seem to me that it would be a lot easier for someone to pull a sling from a bolt then unscrew a quick link. Expecialy if it's been there for a while. Just curious why leaving slings behind is more unacceptable then leaving quick links?
eric
|
|
|
|
|
coldclimb
Jul 16, 2003, 7:55 PM
Post #29 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 14, 2002
Posts: 6909
|
umm, fear, quicklinks are used in climbing situations for bailing or use at the anchors, which means there's only gonna be a few hundred pounds on them at most. They're not being used in place of carabiners for lead climbing (I hope).
On another note, ever looked at the quickdraws hung in the gym? I dunno about the rest of the world, but the gym here, on the wall side of each draw, has (gasp) a quicklink!!!1 :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
robbovius
Jul 16, 2003, 8:00 PM
Post #30 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 8406
|
In reply to: umm, fear, quicklinks are used in climbing situations for bailing or use at the anchors, which means there's only gonna be a few hundred pounds on them at most. They're not being used in place of carabiners for lead climbing (I hope). On another note, ever looked at the quickdraws hung in the gym? I dunno about the rest of the world, but the gym here, on the wall side of each draw, has (gasp) a quicklink!!!1 :wink:
Cold yeah! the gym I did all my training in last winter used 3/8s screwlinks on oth ends of the anchor chains, and guess what the ropes were passing thru? yup, an opposed pair of 3/8s screw links. ;-)
|
|
|
|
|
fear
Jul 16, 2003, 8:04 PM
Post #31 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 475
|
Do what you want.... If your life is worth a $2.00 link, so be it.
I was also referring to links outside, where real climbing takes place. There is rain, ice, dirt, salts, etc.... that can corrode cheesy steel in no time flat.
Also don't look to your local gym for climbing standards.
-Fear.....
|
|
|
|
|
jerrygarcia
Jul 16, 2003, 8:09 PM
Post #32 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 837
|
In reply to: Also don't look to your local gym for climbing standards. -Fear.....
I wish more people would think this way. Only problem is most of the "new" climbers come from gyms. Not downing that, just that a lot of the people "training" them dont know much outside of a gym themselves wich can be bad.
|
|
|
|
|
coldclimb
Jul 16, 2003, 8:14 PM
Post #33 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 14, 2002
Posts: 6909
|
I figure if the gym uses them for lead climbing, which they do here, and they haven't broken them, then they should be ok for bailing, wouldn't you think? :roll: lol....
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jul 16, 2003, 8:25 PM
Post #34 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
If I were installing quicklink anchors I'd tighten them up so that they could not be unscrewed by hand. I don't recall the figures -- I knew them at one time from a parachute riggers class -- but, unscrewed quick links are weak, and I'd be concerned about someone rapping or lowering off them without screwing them back up. The rule in rigger's school was tighten by hand plus one quarter turn with a wrench.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
Jul 16, 2003, 9:23 PM
Post #35 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
In reply to: I haven't compared Bruce's prices with Alex's, but here is another source of "Mallion Rapides" http://www.onrope1.com/PDFs/Mallion_Rapides.pdf L.J.
Alex who?
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
Jul 16, 2003, 9:26 PM
Post #36 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
In reply to: Just curious why leaving slings behind is more unacceptable then leaving quick links?
Several reasons, but one reason is for aesthetics. A mass of rotting, faded slings is pretty ugly. Quicklinks take much longer to turn to crap.
|
|
|
|
|
b_fost
Jul 16, 2003, 10:07 PM
Post #37 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 29, 2003
Posts: 1268
|
rradam wrote:
In reply to: I scored two boxes of 60 1/4" Stainless Steel ones, that are Nuclear Grade here at work.
lol. nuclear grade bail biners. YOU ROCK ADAM!!!
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Jul 16, 2003, 10:22 PM
Post #38 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
weather we like them or not, cheap quick links are used comonly as a component of rap systems at allmost every crag in the USA. They are often used as rings on slings or to connect chains to bolts or by themselfs on bolts. Has anyone got documented evidence of failure of a 3/8th" or 10mm quick link used as a rappel anchor. I have heard of many cases of old 1/4 in bolts failing as well as old tat failing. I have heard of rusty chain failing but the diameter was not mentioned and I seriously doubt it was 3/8th logging chain as I have done a lot of logging with very old 3/8th chain and that stuff is STRONG. The only failed chain story I know of is the Living Large/Largo story and that was a long time ago. He could have been talking about some pretty cheesy chain to start with? I know I have broken climbing rope logging but never 3/8thin chain 8)
|
|
|
|
|
ljthawk
Jul 16, 2003, 11:48 PM
Post #39 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 2, 2002
Posts: 245
|
In reply to: In reply to: I haven't compared Bruce's prices with Alex's, but here is another source of "Mallion Rapides" http://www.onrope1.com/PDFs/Mallion_Rapides.pdf L.J. Alex who?
Alex Sproul, Owner of IMO (Inner Mountain Outfitters), the vendor jerrygarcia posted. Bruce Smith is the owner of On Rope 1, the vendor I posted. Bruce Smith is also co author of "On Rope". Both are fairly nice guys.
L.J.
|
|
|
|
|
robbovius
Jul 17, 2003, 12:31 AM
Post #40 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 8406
|
In reply to: Do what you want.... If your life is worth a $2.00 link, so be it. I was also referring to links outside, where real climbing takes place. There is rain, ice, dirt, salts, etc.... that can corrode cheesy steel in no time flat. Also don't look to your local gym for climbing standards. -Fear.....
Well, last I looked, all the crags I climb on regularly were, ummm, outside ;-)
And, MY links are $4.98! and in each anchor system I set up there's 6 of 'em, so that's almost 30 bucks! that's at LEAST as much as any rap anchor I ever saw with UIAA cert stuff...;-) so each of us is trusting out $30 anchor sytems not to fail. Tell me, are those chains in the anchors UIAA cert?
what we got going on here is, in large part, simple prejudice against non-climbing-specific parts, as though having the UIAA cert is a magic talisman against failure...
LOL! This is almost as good as a grigri vs ATC thread ;-)
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Jul 17, 2003, 12:50 AM
Post #41 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
Why use six? the most I use is4 and most often 2. I do prefer the Fixe ring anchors, however I can't allways get my hands on them. If I do a rt on the fly I usualy don't have the patience to wait for mail order. Quick links and chains are usualy about the same price as a set of the fixe ring anchors so cost realy is not a factor as much as availability.
|
|
|
|
|
philbox
Moderator
Jul 17, 2003, 2:05 AM
Post #42 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 13105
|
I don`t have a problem with quicklinks per se but I do have a problem trusting the really cheap unstamped hardware store variety. Yeah mebbe lowering off one as a bail option but we have people setting anchors with these pieces of death. Yeah I might be paranoid but I`m really about pushing for quality hardware to be used on the routes we put up so that they can be enjoyed for a great many years. I`ll try to get those failure specs out of the guy who tested them but it will take a while.
Excellent discussion so far, I apreciate the input from everyone.
|
|
|
|
|
pico23
Jul 17, 2003, 2:57 AM
Post #43 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 14, 2003
Posts: 2378
|
In reply to: Do what you want.... If your life is worth a $2.00 link, so be it. I was also referring to links outside, where real climbing takes place. There is rain, ice, dirt, salts, etc.... that can corrode cheesy steel in no time flat. Also don't look to your local gym for climbing standards. -Fear.....
Just to let you all know, I was looking at links for the last few days and tonight I cam across some made in a ISO 9001 certified factory, most of your climbing gear is made in ISO 9001 factories.
Anyway, I did the math and even though I consistently rap off of quick links at rap stations I don't see a benefit to them unless you are installing a station. That is they are two heavy to haul with you consistently and cost almost the same as a rolled aluminum rappel ring.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Jul 17, 2003, 3:16 AM
Post #44 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
the benifit is that you can attach them to bolts to hold logging chain when setting anchors. the problem with rigging bolts with webbing or cord is that it fades with the sun so people add more and sooner or later you have so much tat that you can't even get a biner into the bolt and are forced to clip the tat. I cary a knife now but still feel it is better to use chains. they are strong and don't clutter the station. I really prefer the fixe rings but don't allways have them. the good thing is if you use stud type bolts you can allways add the rings at a later date.
|
|
|
|
|
tonydevo
Jul 17, 2003, 4:31 AM
Post #45 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 17, 2001
Posts: 77
|
I just did some informal testing for you guys regarding quick links. Here' the results:
5/16" Carbon Steel unrated home depot quick links
fixe 4mm hanger
10.5mm sterling gym rope (stiff)
25 foot factor .75 fall (We measured exactly and calculated the FF))
gri-gri belay
180lbs climber (I am the UIAAdrop mass! yeah baby)
In the Gym I work at we set up a lead wall with the links mentioned above and took five equal falls onto the same anchor point and then inspected the link. After five falls there was no visible damage and no deformation. next we open the link so there was a 5mm gap between the thread and sleeve. 3 more equal falls finally deformed the link to the point of uselessness ie. bent badly but still holding.
In conclusion:
Our test was not remotely scientific but the results speak for themselves. These are the small, thin 5/16" links and they held all that repeated force. Make your own judgements but I feel safe rapping off 2 links.
The best part of all this?
I get paid to do this.
|
|
|
|
|
robbovius
Jul 17, 2003, 12:01 PM
Post #46 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 8406
|
In reply to: I just did some informal testing for you guys regarding quick links. Here' the results: 5/16" Carbon Steel unrated home depot quick links fixe 4mm hanger 10.5mm sterling gym rope (stiff) 25 foot factor .75 fall (We measured exactly and calculated the FF)) gri-gri belay 180lbs climber (I am the UIAAdrop mass! yeah baby) In the Gym I work at we set up a lead wall with the links mentioned above and took five equal falls onto the same anchor point and then inspected the link. After five falls there was no visible damage and no deformation. next we open the link so there was a 5mm gap between the thread and sleeve. 3 more equal falls finally deformed the link to the point of uselessness ie. bent badly but still holding. In conclusion: Our test was not remotely scientific but the results speak for themselves. These are the small, thin 5/16" links and they held all that repeated force. Make your own judgements but I feel safe rapping off 2 links. The best part of all this? I get paid to do this.
you have the kewlest job, ever. ;-)
|
|
|
|
|
robbovius
Jul 17, 2003, 12:15 PM
Post #47 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 8406
|
In reply to: Why use six? the most I use is4 and most often 2. I do prefer the Fixe ring anchors, however I can't allways get my hands on them. If I do a rt on the fly I usualy don't have the patience to wait for mail order. Quick links and chains are usualy about the same price as a set of the fixe ring anchors so cost realy is not a factor as much as availability.
I think the disparity here is that we're talking about rap anchors and toprope anchors respectively.
The crag I go to ost regularly requires a lot of long slings (25-30 feet) anchored mopstly from trees. Rather than girth-hitching the slings (mine are all water-knotted into loops) I'll wrap one end of the sling loop around the tree and attach it to itself using wo opposed 3/8ths screwlinks. I know that one will do the job strengthwise, but following the philosophy of redundancy, it just makes me feel better to have two. I do the same for the second anchor sling.
if I need to I'll extend the 1st and second slings by girth-hitching in other web loops end-to-end, and when I get the proper length over the crag edge, set up the rope/belay end with two opposed 1/2 inch screw links.
so, 6 links in total. I truly believe this is overkill as far as strength of the links. ALL of mine are stamped with the WLL.
I've found myself FAR more nervous on other folks toprope anchors, where i've gotten to the top and found a SINGLE screwgate biner hanging from the slings. *gulp*
|
|
|
|
|
tonydevo
Jul 17, 2003, 3:19 PM
Post #48 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 17, 2001
Posts: 77
|
A single locking biner is adequate for all toproping applications unless there is a risk of the sleeve opening. 2 solid anchors equalised with a locking carabiner or 2 is the guiding standard around here. Petzl makes some nice autolocking and Tri-act biners that would be ideal for paranoid toproper. :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
brianinslc
Jul 17, 2003, 4:09 PM
Post #49 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 13, 2002
Posts: 1500
|
In reply to: I don`t have a problem with quicklinks per se but I do have a problem trusting the really cheap unstamped hardware store variety. Yeah mebbe lowering off one as a bail option but we have people setting anchors with these pieces of death. Excellent discussion so far, I apreciate the input from everyone.
Eeeee...
So, I rail against hardware store cold shuts on one thread...and...uhhh...
I use quick links from the hardware store without reservation...in this thread...
Phil, I just don't see them as being, uhh, bad. A friend tested 2 of the thin 1/4" inch ones from the hardware store. I was nervious about using them to rap on (with skinny 8mm cords) so, he tested. Both broke above 6200 lbs within around 10 or 20 lbs of each other.
I use as a minimum the 5/16" ones. If I can get the 3/8" ones, I'd prefer them.
Most climbing gyms I've been to use them to attach draws to routes. And, in over ten years of belonging to one gym, and frequenting many others, I've never heard of a rapid link failing. Biners, yes, but not the links. Thats a bunch of data points (as, at least in my gym, folks take falls all the time on them, over and over and over...
Most of the cheapies have a SWL (safe working load) stamped in them. In industrial lifting, I think folks in the rigging industry buy them and use as per rated right off the shelf. They are WAY overdesigned for climbing.
Dingus, I like Jay's rule of thumb. 1/4 turn past hand tight or thereabouts. I also add a bit of loctite if I'm worried about them going bye bye (although some folks will torque the piss out of them anyhow, ruining the hanger and maybe damaging the bolt). If they are more than handtight, shouldn't get ripped. If someone really wants to steal them, they'd have a wrench anyhoo. I wouldn't overtighten them either. Too much stress. Also, I think a layer of loctite adds a bit of corrosion protection to the threads too.
I dislike seeing them as bail evidence on climbs. Folks should just pony up and leave a biner. Price to pay for tryin' something you can't do, har har. Waaaay easier to clean too. Bail booty!
Hmmm.... I think hardware store quick links (rapides, rapid links, quickies) are fine. Especially (preferably) if they have a SWL stamped into them. Especially if folks are using 5/16" as a minimum.
At the recent "bolt-a-rama" in Castle Rocks in Idaho (see your latest Rock and Ice magazine for details) for instance, the ranger was very picky that all hardware be top shelf. This included at a min 3/8" stainless steel bolts and prepainted stainless steel hangers. The top anchors of choice? Plain ol' galvanized steel hardware store 3/8" chain and quick links (painted to match).
FWI, for all you fixed hardware painters out there...I found that Rustoleum makes an nice latex primer for galvanized steel. Can't quite recall the name, but, comes in a handy can (instead of a spray can) and quite a volume for the money (around 6 bucks). Is off gray, easy to clean (water based so can clean up in the sink), no excessive fumes, and seems to bond well. Then, oil based standard spray on topcoat to match.
This method works waaay better than trying to get an oil based primer and/or topcoat to stick, and is waaay better than the old school soakin' of hardware in vinegar (eek, ruins the zinc coating and brings on the rust in a rapido fashion).
Anyone with industial rigging experience? I think common to use off the shelf quick links for overhead lifting, at the rating stamped on the link.
French links? Are these really made in France? Should we be calling them "freedom links"? Har har... My money says there the same stock, same process, and if we're lucky, they get a bit of load testing? Petzl rep out there (Hank?)? I'll bet they just cost more. Mallion. French for overpriced quick links? Ha.
Stainless quick links...if anyone has any in 5/16" min that they get at a good price, PLEASE let me know!
Phil, TnT said they had a great time with you down yonder...er..under...!
Yee haa...
Brian in SLC
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jul 17, 2003, 4:12 PM
Post #50 of 67
(4549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: I just did some informal testing for you guys regarding quick links. Here' the results: 5/16" Carbon Steel unrated home depot quick links fixe 4mm hanger 10.5mm sterling gym rope (stiff) 25 foot factor .75 fall (We measured exactly and calculated the FF)) gri-gri belay 180lbs climber (I am the UIAAdrop mass! yeah baby) In the Gym I work at we set up a lead wall with the links mentioned above and took five equal falls onto the same anchor point and then inspected the link. After five falls there was no visible damage and no deformation. next we open the link so there was a 5mm gap between the thread and sleeve. 3 more equal falls finally deformed the link to the point of uselessness ie. bent badly but still holding. In conclusion: Our test was not remotely scientific but the results speak for themselves. These are the small, thin 5/16" links and they held all that repeated force. Make your own judgements but I feel safe rapping off 2 links. The best part of all this? I get paid to do this.
And the worst part is that the typical uninformed newbie user of this website will take your results seriously. Your results prove ablsolutely nothing about the safety of quick links, and anybody who relies on the results of such informal testing could be in for a big surprise. Your test conditions were not nearly well-enough controlled, and you only tested a single link. You have no way of knowing the range of strengths of these links are. Maybe the one you tested was unusally strong, or maybe not, you can't tell from your test.
What your test does show, which was what I was worried about (see my earlier post), is that open links are too weak to be reliable. Should a link inadvertantly open (and I've seen some on anchors that have) the link could break or deform to the point where the rope could slip out.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Jul 17, 2003, 4:14 PM
Post #51 of 67
(4782 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: French links? Are these really made in France? Should we be calling them "freedom links"? Har har...
You get those at Der Veenersnitzl don't you Herr Schroder?
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Jul 17, 2003, 4:18 PM
Post #52 of 67
(4782 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: Dingus, I like Jay's rule of thumb. 1/4 turn past hand tight or thereabouts. I also add a bit of loctite if I'm worried about them going bye bye (although some folks will torque the piss out of them anyhow, ruining the hanger and maybe damaging the bolt).
Right. That was my thinking too. Tight enough to dissuade casual theft... not so tight that the link or hanger is ruined. Like you said, if someone is intent on stripping the route, presumably they will have the tools necessary to do so. No matter how tight the link, if you remove the hanger the link goes with it!
Cheers and thanks,
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
moondog
Jul 17, 2003, 5:00 PM
Post #53 of 67
(4782 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 25, 2002
Posts: 196
|
They look flimsy and I usually prefer more then one for redundancy but those things won't fail unless they wear out from ropes being pulled through.
Actually they are very strong (16.6 kN - stronger than the load required by the CE harness standard) and when properly used, one is more than enough. That said, Aluminium rap rings are one of the most misused pieces of gear out there. They were designed to facilitate pulling ropes on "adventure" climbs and not for heavy use at crags (that's why they're so light). It is generally irresponsible to place one in any frequent or high use area because they wear and weaken very rapidly from rope pulls. AL rap rings were designed to be used only once.
hank
|
|
|
|
|
moondog
Jul 17, 2003, 5:06 PM
Post #54 of 67
(4782 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 25, 2002
Posts: 196
|
But what do you think of me tightening them with a wrench? Good? Bad? Who cares?
I always wrench-tighten mine when I can. Most commonly used sizes of MR are designed to be tightened to 2.5 Nm of torque (oh yeah! tech city!) but I just tighten a little past finger tight - all that's needed. Overtightening can weaken the little thingies, but I don't have any data on this.
hank
|
|
|
|
|
moondog
Jul 17, 2003, 5:18 PM
Post #55 of 67
(4782 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 25, 2002
Posts: 196
|
My money says there the same stock, same process, and if we're lucky, they get a bit of load testing? Petzl rep out there (Hank?)? I'll bet they just cost more. Mallion. French for overpriced quick links?
Not sure about stock, but the process is probably very similar (meet MR roboto!). Looks like the MR brand factory does random batch testing, but certainly not an individual test. Details:
http://www.peguet.fr/peguet/gb/qualite/tests.html
I first inspect and then generally use just about any link I find hanging around out there, but I *buy* MR brand just 'cuz I get such a great price on them and the quality is tops. I believe just about anyone can buy in bulk straight from the MR distributor and get a price break ( provided they buy enough). Bulk is good way to buy climbing consumables like chalk, bolts, etc! Check at http://www.wichard-usa.com/ClimbingSafety/maillon_rapide/index.htm if interested in overpriced MRs. If nothing else, you might find a special new shape that strikes yer fancy!
|
|
|
|
|
tonydevo
Jul 17, 2003, 7:17 PM
Post #56 of 67
(4782 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 17, 2001
Posts: 77
|
Did I imply my test was 3sigma or even remotely accurate? no. I simply tested a random link with pretty severe loads and reported my results. If some ignorant person chooses to accept my info as gospel then i'll have chuckle when I read their Darwin Award. This is the internet believe what you want and take some responsibility for your self.
I feel safe using 3/8" quicklinks and 3/8" grade 40 chain for climbing anchors provided they are only for lowering and rappelling. Dynamic loads on hardware store steel is a scary thought. Do you feel using nuts and cams rated to 5kn? (RP's, WC Zeroes). :?:
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jul 17, 2003, 7:39 PM
Post #57 of 67
(4782 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: Did I imply my test was 3sigma or even remotely accurate? no. I simply tested a random link with pretty severe loads and reported my results. If some ignorant person chooses to accept my info as gospel then i'll have chuckle when I read their Darwin Award. This is the internet believe what you want and take some responsibility for your self.
If your test was useless why did you post it? Do you think the typical 15-y/o newbie on this site has a clue about 3-sigma testing. Most can barely spell their own names. Take some responsibility for your actions, including your posts. People should be able to rely on what they read here. If not, what's the point?
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
tonydevo
Jul 17, 2003, 8:25 PM
Post #58 of 67
(4782 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 17, 2001
Posts: 77
|
Reliable internet info? You're dreaming. Ideas, facts and info posted on RC.com are to be viewed with the highest skepticism due to the fact any idiot like you and me can post seemingly legit info on here. My little test is 100% more useful then a post of "I think a link will hold but I only climb in the gym" but it also 100% useless because, as you stated, it's not a worthwhile test . If you choose to jeoprodize your safety by counting on only the opionions of RC.com users you are truly doomed regardless of age. I posted the info in good faith as a guide for further inquiry and inlclude my email address with all posts you can contact me anytime. What's the point? internet forum posts are at best a tip of the iceberg when it comes to all things related to climbing safety.
Consult a AMGA/ACMG Guide, Metal engineer or local guru if you need the full and real answer. Don't listen to me or Jay.
|
|
|
|
|
tradklime
Jul 17, 2003, 9:33 PM
Post #59 of 67
(4782 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 1235
|
It's already been stated but I will reiterate. There is enough evidence in the real world to validate hardware quicklinks are fine. They have been used in climbing situations for years and there is no documented failure of a properly closed quicklink.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jul 17, 2003, 10:46 PM
Post #60 of 67
(4782 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: Reliable internet info? You're dreaming. Ideas, facts and info posted on RC.com are to be viewed with the highest skepticism due to the fact any idiot like you and me can post seemingly legit info on here. My little test is 100% more useful then a post of "I think a link will hold but I only climb in the gym" but it also 100% useless because, as you stated, it's not a worthwhile test . If you choose to jeoprodize your safety by counting on only the opionions of RC.com users you are truly doomed regardless of age. I posted the info in good faith as a guide for further inquiry and inlclude my email address with all posts you can contact me anytime. What's the point? internet forum posts are at best a tip of the iceberg when it comes to all things related to climbing safety. Consult a AMGA/ACMG Guide, Metal engineer or local guru if you need the full and real answer. Don't listen to me or Jay.
The problem with your post is this. You wrote: "In conclusion: Our test was not remotely scientific but the results speak for themselves. These are the small, thin 5/16" links and they held all that repeated force."
You discaim it, calling it unscientifc, but then say that the results speak for themselves anyway. This is misleading and irresponsible.
This forum is as good or as bad as we make it. If we use a little self-discipline and post responsibly then the forums will be useful sources of information; if we don't then it will just be a sandbox to play in, or worse, a box of quicksand.
Internet forums can indeed be reliable sources of information. If you don't believe this, search the rec.climbing archives. They are full of good information that is unavaible anywhere else. You cannot get away with posting bullshit there; and therefore, the information there is useful. If we policed ourselves like that here, this site would be more useful. Like I said, take some responsibility for your post. Your post would have been fine if you had seriously disclaimed your results, instead of talking out of both sides of your mouth, potentially misleading others.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
paganmonkeyboy
Jul 17, 2003, 11:09 PM
Post #61 of 67
(4782 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 30, 2003
Posts: 663
|
In reply to: The best part of all this? I get paid to do this.
dude ! so jealous...need to find a gig like that one. They hiring there ?
|
|
|
|
|
coldclimb
Jul 17, 2003, 11:16 PM
Post #62 of 67
(4782 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 14, 2002
Posts: 6909
|
lol, this is insane. People just love arguing for the sake of arguing.
So the facts have been shown: the small 5/16ths quicklinks can break if not closed properly under the stress of a lead fall. This is obvious. JT is right.
But the subject in question was whether it's safe to bail or rappel off them. This is perfectly safe, because the forces are tiny compared to lead falls. This is obvious. I am right. :D
This thread is hilarious! :lol: :lol: :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
watersprite
Jul 18, 2003, 5:19 PM
Post #63 of 67
(4782 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 1601
|
wonderful!! are most climbers engineers?
well. I have to go work on my car.... anyone know how to replace a valve cover gasket?
|
|
|
|
|
biff
Jul 18, 2003, 7:47 PM
Post #64 of 67
(4782 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 5, 2001
Posts: 851
|
I found Tony's info very useful .. It basically says taht a well made 5/16" quick link is very..very strong .. strong enough to take a prety good fall, even when open. .. which is what I expected, given my experiance pulling logs and such behind a boat using similar hardware.
Around here many of the old routes (Pre 1996) have a set of chains at the anchors with a quick link similar to the one Tony used in his test. I have been raping off a single quick link (with chains to both anchor bolts) for my entire climbing life, and this little experiment makes me feel more secure about my decision to do so.
|
|
|
|
|
brianinslc
Jul 18, 2003, 7:53 PM
Post #65 of 67
(4782 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 13, 2002
Posts: 1500
|
[quote="biff"]I found Tony's info very useful .. It basically says taht a well made 5/16" quick link is very..very strong .. strong enough to take a prety good fall, even when open. .. which is what I expected, given my experiance pulling logs and such behind a boat using similar hardware./quote]
I didn't find the info very useful...but...pretty "interesting". In a quasi "gut feel" kinda way.
No such thing as "bad data". Interpret as you wish...
Thanks for the data and effort, Tony.
Brian in SLC
|
|
|
|
|
mikeehartley
Jul 18, 2003, 8:08 PM
Post #66 of 67
(4782 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 25, 2003
Posts: 118
|
On tightening and later removing quick links... I have been doing it for many years in work situations. Not problem AS LONG AS you lube the threads. Spraying something like WD40 on the visible threads doesn't get you too much. You have to unscrew the collar, flood the cup that is created so that the internal threads get lubed, and then grease ("Never Seaze", etc) the external threads that you can see. This will get you many years in all but environments like the northwest.
|
|
|
|
|
ihategrigris
Aug 10, 2005, 7:10 AM
Post #67 of 67
(4782 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 6, 2005
Posts: 757
|
[quote="pico23"]In reply to: . Their is simply no comparison to If you are talking about the rolled and not welded aluminum rings on the market, those suckers are stronger then the old steel welded ones. There is nothing to fail on them since they are a single piece of metal. They look flimsy and I usually prefer more then one for redundancy but those things won't fail unless they wear out from ropes being pulled through.
Any aluminum piece, welded or continuous will eventually fail due to fatigue. Eventually, especially under heavy use, even the best rolled aluminum ring will fail. You should always remember this, and if you see some pretty ratty looking equipment up there, such as rusty chains or hangers, be suspicious of the rolled aluminum rap rings.
|
|
|
|
|
|
