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climber1
Jul 21, 2003, 3:45 AM
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In the latest Rock and Ice, Yvon Chouinard says that sport climbing is not a legitimte form of climbing. what do you think?
BTW, to all you noobs. Chouinard founded the software company Patagonia, and Chouinard Equipment which later became Black Diamond.
He was part of the first ascent team on El Cap's NA wall, and has numerous fa's to his credit.
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tradkelly
Jul 21, 2003, 3:52 AM
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Q: "Does the rise of standards in bouldering and sport climbing spill over into other facets of climbing?"
A: "Bouldering and sport climbing are valuable, but they are not legitimate forms of climbing. Without risk, things like that are not really climbing."
Yeah, if you're not willing to hang it out like old-school, it's not what Yvon knew as climbing. And good for those who eschew bolted climbs, or prefer trad over other disciplines. I guess it depends on what you're looking for out of climbing.
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muncher
Jul 21, 2003, 4:01 AM
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Seems like a bit of a glut of sport climbing trolls lately huh. Like it or not sport climbing is here to stay. Sure there may be more "ethically superior" styles of climbing but it is all still climbing and it is all good as far as I'm concerned.
Respect for Yvon Chouinard but this argument is getting pretty old.
Are bolts only ok if used for aid climbing? is what I did this weekend illigitimate? should I be on the run from the climbing police?
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brianthew
Jul 21, 2003, 4:15 AM
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It's all climbing, dude. Yvon is one of the super-old school types, if he was starting to climb in the 80's or 90's I'd say he think otherwise.
In reply to: software company Patagonia |
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roughster
Jul 21, 2003, 4:29 AM
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1st of all, lots of respect and admiration for Yvon Chouinard. Doing what they did with the equipment available to them at the time was and still is pretty damn impressive.
However, with that said, how is there no risk in sport climbing? I bolt ground up sport routes a lot. I head off into the unknown using passive protection just like he and others did, except many times I don't have the luxury of heading up clean sweaps of granite. I head up fractured chossy limestone hoping that the block I am on doesn't cut loose killing me and my partner with it. When I am all done, a sport climb is created. Creating sport climbs can have lots of risk, I would say as much, and in many cases MORE than some (not all) of what they did "back in the day".
The fact of the matter is, being born at a time when there was unlimited rock potential does not mean that your the automatically the smartest cookie on Earth nor does it mean that you have a firm graps of what the situation is like now. Not enough credit is giving to experience generally, but it should never be trusted blindly. Sport climbing is here to stay, period.
While I continue to have much admiration for the likes of Mr. Chouinard, statements such as what he presented shows how far out of touch from the current climbing trend he is. I wouldn't be have surprised to have read "and some of these fangdangled climbers are swinging their hips rather suggestively while climbing.." ala Ed Sullivan style. Sometimes as we get older we resent change. Sounds like Yvon is as that point.
Just because he is at a point in his life where he has the media ear doesn't mean we should all throw down what makes us happy for his ideals that he's held onto from a bygone era.
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col_sanderz
Jul 21, 2003, 5:13 AM
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I used to think he was a pretty cool cat, but now I give him the big thumbs down. Better yet...DUST!! (reference the movie "Loser" if youre in the dark)
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chingas
Jul 21, 2003, 5:29 AM
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I enjoy climbing-be it trad,sport, or bouldering. I have fun.
That is enough to make it legitimate for me...
By the way, he later mentions in the article that he broke his elbow in three places while BOULDERING!
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renobdarb
Jul 21, 2003, 6:54 AM
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In reply to: In the latest Rock and Ice, Yvon Chouinard says that sport climbing is not a legitimte form of climbing. what do you think?
BWAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAA HAAAAAA HAAAA HAAA HAA HA Haaaa haaaa!!!!!!!!
all that aside, even though i personally think he's full of crap, he's certainly entitled to his own opinion...
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climbsomething
Jul 21, 2003, 10:59 AM
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Gosh, I was wondering how long this would take to hit the pages of rc.com! ;)
Schweenard takes the Less is More approach to trolling ;) hehehe
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redpoint73
Jul 21, 2003, 11:59 AM
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For those who have not read any of Chouinard's other interviews/comments, he often says many inflammatory things about modern climbing in general, not just sport climbing (check out his comments about surfers!). I'm not sure if he just likes stirring controversy or what. I think its mostly because he was a great climber from a very different time (no Gore-Tex, had to engineer much of their gear, no sport climbing, mostly climbing stuff that had never been climbed, etc.). They really were pioneers, trailblazers, and risk-takers. Climbing is much more mainstream nowadays, and Chouinard is very opinionated about that concept.
Besides, many men just get bitter when they get older. Maybe he falls into that category? I guess you'd have to talk to him personally to answer that question, and I have not.
Rock and Ice just put that byline on the cover to sell magazines. Anyway, I don't need anyone to tell me what I enjoy is legitimate, and you don't either.
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dirtineye
Jul 21, 2003, 12:52 PM
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Wow, Chouinard is a god. Heed the words of wisdom sinners LOL.
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ambler
Jul 21, 2003, 3:00 PM
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Context matters; I recommend reading the article before judging the quote. Rock & Ice is doing its own version of trolling, with Yvon as the bait. On the cover, Chris Sharma boulders in India, and beside him the headline "Is bouldering legit? Chouinard sounds off." Inside, after this hype all we get is a thin one-page interview, in which Yvon makes his provocative comment, but then later admits he got hurt bouldering so it's not too safe after all. I suspect he's not thrilled with the R&I treatment.
Well, is sport climbing legitimate? Obviously a subjective question, and here it's been asked of somebody whose climbing career was built on bold, committing ascents of unknown routes, from the Muir Wall ("the most adventurous ascent" accomplished on rock by Americans, Royal Robbins said at the time) to Patagonia. And from that perspective, it must seem that sport climbing is much closer in spirit to top-roping than it is to the kinds of experiences that Yvon and his contemporaries viewed as real climbs. Not that sport isn't hard, but a different game.
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triznut
Jul 21, 2003, 3:19 PM
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I personally like doing all 3 (Trad, Sport, Boulder) and anybody who says that sport and bouldering are not legitimate forms of climbing are ignorant :!:
In reply to: A: "Bouldering and sport climbing are valuable, but they are not legitimate forms of climbing. Without risk, things like that are not really climbing."
Yvon I would like to know what you would be thinking 20ft up on a V4 highball. I know what I have thought, that if I fall here I'm a goner. You know why i think that? Because it's a BIG RISK :!:
Come on people get over this subject. If you can't hack sport and bouldering then don't do it but don't complain to others because you can't handle all climbing has to offer. You don't here me bitching about AID climbing even though I don't have a desire to do it. But other poeple do so I respect that, but I say let it go free.
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wyomingclimber
Jul 21, 2003, 3:25 PM
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I hope when I get old(er) I don't start in on the 'these kids today' nonsense.
The world evolves. Standards and styles change. The next generation builds on the one before it. Do old Tour riders say Lance and Jan aren't 'real' racers because they don't have to change their own tires? Do old boxers say Ali wasn't a real fighter because he wore gloves? And what about today's Nike clad runners? Back in the day, runners were were pretty much wearing wingtips. I remember when I first started climbing, people didn't really do multi-year projects--but do I sit around and say that the redpoint of Realization wasn't climbing as much as a gymnastic publicity stunt?
And then there's the question of whether Yvonne (by today's standards) was a climber at all. I think the Huber brothers would consider all his ascents painfully slow scrambles and giggle uncontrollably at his use of ropes on fourth class terrain.
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rrrADAM
Jul 21, 2003, 3:26 PM
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Been a while since I said this, but...
It's all climbing brutha !!!
Sport, Bouldering, Trad, Aid, Alpine, Mountaineering, Gym, Ice, and even Buildering... It's all climbing.
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rockfax
Jul 21, 2003, 3:34 PM
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Great marketing by Rock and Ice. Hats off to them.
Great quote by Chouinard too. The other week in High Country News he said that climbers today are less in tune with their environment than the old fellas. Bollox.
Shame he doesn't put the same amount of thought in to his musing on climbing as he does to running Patagonia.....or perhaps he does the wise old owl.
I for one wish that the old fellas and the mags would do more stuff like this. It makes people think. In the UK there are many outspoken old fellas making statements about the future and the past. It's great fun and very entertaining - but at the same time makes the climbing community reflect on their actions.
So hats off to Choiunard and Rock and Ice.
More of this stuff please.
Mick
www.rockfax.com
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cloudbreak
Jul 21, 2003, 4:02 PM
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I'm deeply sadened. I come into work Monday morning to find that I'm not a climber. Never even was! For my own knowledge, what IS sport and bouldering then....just movement?
What fukkin ever!!!! It's all climbing and it's all fun!!!!
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timstich
Jul 21, 2003, 4:13 PM
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In reply to: In the latest Rock and Ice, Yvon Chouinard says that sport climbing is not a legitimte form of climbing. what do you think? BTW, to all you noobs. Chouinard founded the software company Patagonia, and Chouinard Equipment which later became Black Diamond. He was part of the first ascent team on El Cap's NA wall, and has numerous fa's to his credit.
Maybe the better question is what do you think of old fharts poo pooing what the young punks are doing? They sit, stare, grumble and then compare what they did to what is done now. And surprise, surprise, surprise, what those punkasses are doing is illegitimate! Wot a riot.
But the most important question really is...how the hell do you pronounce that guy Chouinard's name? We used to just say Shiitnard. Seriously, we did. Like a lot of people would say Putzl. We liked the gear, but finding the name hard to make out, we applied the proper respect and decided ourselves how to say it.
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rockfax
Jul 21, 2003, 4:39 PM
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Just bought the mag on the strength of this thread.
It's a great issue.
I note that Shoenard says that Mountaineering is not environmental....compared to surfing.
Is any activity environmental? All have impact, but you try to keep that to a minimum. I see no point in ranking activities. In fact it is extremley difficult to do so.
I wonder how much environmental damage surfers have caused just driving to the ocean in their cars? I wonder how many surfers (Shoenard excepted) who have contributed to the well being of native peoples in mountaineous regions, say like Doug Scott and Sir Ed Hillary have?
Mick
www.rockfax.com
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drector
Jul 21, 2003, 5:17 PM
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He's probably a great guy but that statement made me lose some respect for him. My dictionary doesn't say anything about "danger" with regard to climbing. Of course it's standard operating procedure in this sport to dis' everyone else and to think that the way you are doing things is the only "right" way.
Dave
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caughtinside
Jul 21, 2003, 5:23 PM
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In reply to: I note that Shoenard says that Mountaineering is not environmental....compared to surfing.
That's interesting that he'd say that, since Patagonia builds surfboards. The act of surfing doesn't hurt the ocean, but a surfboard itself is a composite of really nasty non-biodegradeable chemicals. Shaping one creates waste, and boards today are almost seen as disposable in the quest for faster/lighter boards.
But surfing is the greatest.
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crag
Jul 21, 2003, 5:35 PM
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First of all R&I Sucks. One page interview w/ Chinard but his pic is on the cover; pure BS. Only thing worse was the self admiration societies article on the spoiled kids in India; more crap.
On the topic the legitimacyy of bouldering and spurtty climbing, cast off your old tired ethics is what I say cuz lifes to short to git wraped up in all of the social constructs of our sport.
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cloudbreak
Jul 21, 2003, 6:05 PM
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The only thing that stays the same is that everything changes.........
So all the old grumps who can't deal, get over it!!!!
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timstich
Jul 21, 2003, 6:26 PM
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In reply to: Just bought the mag on the strength of this thread. It's a great issue. I note that Shoenard says that Mountaineering is not environmental....compared to surfing.
Oh, that blasted poisoning of the mountains that occurs when the filthy man steppeth on them. I think I can get the drift what shoebox environmental story he is peddling. No doubt he needs to read P.J. O'Rourke's "All the Trouble in the World."
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timstich
Jul 21, 2003, 6:29 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I note that Shoenard says that Mountaineering is not environmental....compared to surfing. That's interesting that he'd say that, since Patagonia builds surfboards. The act of surfing doesn't hurt the ocean...
Hey that's what you think, buddy! Surfers scare fish in the act of, you know, doing it. This leads to chroniclely low fish birthrates. And don't forget, a person can give a great white shark indigestion if the surfer eats too much Mexican food. I'm sure you need not be told how much people scare away seals. Everyone out of the water now...
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