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howdidshedothat
Jul 24, 2003, 8:57 PM
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Nice responses joe
:twisted:
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pbjosh
Jul 24, 2003, 10:41 PM
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The availability and quality of gear placements is completely independent of the difficult of a climb. There are just as many well protected 5.14 trad climbs as 5.14 trad death routes. There are just as many well protected 5.9 trad routes as 5.9 death routes.
Look at the as of yet not red-pointed finger crack at squamish. Great gear, just a long pitch of super steep super technical fingers. Look at City Park, great gear. Allmost all the hard routes (5.13 through the possible 14-'s at Indian Creek) have excellent gear.
josh
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dsafanda
Jul 24, 2003, 11:07 PM
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rockprodigy is the only one who seems to know what he's talking about here. Whether he realized it had a name or not, Xanx is talking about a very specific style of climbing called "headpointing". Guess what, I also agree that is a somewhat silly and contrived approach to climbing.
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 25, 2003, 1:37 AM
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Xanx,
Remove "5.14" and "trad" from your original post and I would agree completely.
A tr ascent is perfectly valid, and I don't know where so many people get off saying it isn't.
Tr'ing a route in order to solo it is perfectly acceptable.
The whole pinkpoint/headpoint thing is a joke as far as I am concerned, and it is anything but trad.
As far as the noise on this thread, some people like to play in the mud, don't let them pull you in with them.
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bertman
Jul 27, 2003, 2:38 AM
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im confused... what exactly is headpointing?
Oh yes, just for some flame insurance let me make the following disclaimer:
Yes I am a bit of a noob. Yes I may possibly be ignorant. That is still being looked into. No, I am not trying to verbally bash ice, aid, trad, tr, sport, solo, "headpointing", or even ladder climbing in any way. Did i miss anything?
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climbhigher
Aug 6, 2003, 1:59 AM
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It's called HEAD POINTING. Watch the Gritstone Video. It might change your view on this method of climbing stone. CHEERS
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marks
Aug 6, 2003, 8:25 PM
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head pointing is toproping a route before soloing/leading it.ive done it on all the routes above e6( 5.12c) i have done.the reason i do it is i like climbing the routes, but i am happy not being in a box or even worse a wheelchair.
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phreakdigital
Aug 6, 2003, 9:37 PM
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ok so its totally valid to TR climbs first and then lead them later...this just seems better to me...thats not to say that its not even better to onsight lead the same climb.
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bandycoot
Aug 6, 2003, 9:52 PM
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Head points are more like soloing than leading most often. This is why people don't try to onsight "lead" them. The gear is bad, if not nonexistant. Not many people are into onsight soloing 5.14 thus it is toproped then later "lead" once it is wired. While it is better to onsight lead something, for the most part no one is willing to do it after a certain difficulty since that would be extremely stupid.
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rockprodigy
Aug 7, 2003, 2:32 AM
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In reply to: ok so its totally valid to TR climbs first and then lead them later....
That is not what we are saying.
For the "headpointing" style, TR'ing the route, then leading it is considered a valid "headpoint".
Don't confuse that with carte blanche "validity" for TR'ing every climb before leading it. Just be honest with your spray and you can't go wrong.
Personally I prefer to try trad climbs from the ground up, not the top down, but that's my opinion which I reserve the right to contradict whenever I feel like it.
PS, Go Beavs
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ajkclay
Aug 7, 2003, 3:04 AM
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Just shut up you idiots! xanx is a kid. If you never asked naive questions as a kid, or came across as a bit big for your boots then go ahead and trash him, otherwise GROW UP D!CKHEADS! :evil:
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ropeburn
Aug 7, 2003, 8:11 AM
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In reply to: If you are happy with a TR lead, thats fine.
I wanna know what a top rope lead is.
:mrgreen:
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ronamick
Aug 20, 2003, 2:37 AM
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This kid is all talk, and thinks he has some right to "express skepticism" about a 5.14 climber's tick list.
You are zero until you have put some vertical miles on real rock, and can speak from experience. You are repeating what you read and hear, and it's all bullshit. You don't know until you've been there. Rationalize any way you want, but it won't fly. Again, it's all talk. Talk is cheap. Anyone can talk.
You are completely out of line to question someone climbing at a level that you can't comprehend. You're a delusional little bag of wind who has yet to pay his dues, and until you do, your opinion carries all the weight of a ball of fluff in a windstorm. There's nothing wrong with inexperience if you try to do something about it. To try and write it off as irrelevant to the issue makes you the king of fools.
No offense.
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xanx
Aug 20, 2003, 3:46 AM
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In reply to: This kid is all talk, and thinks he has some right to "express skepticism" about a 5.14 climber's tick list. You are zero until you have put some vertical miles on real rock, and can speak from experience. You are repeating what you read and hear, and it's all poo. You don't know until you've been there. Rationalize any way you want, but it won't fly. Again, it's all talk. Talk is cheap. Anyone can talk. You are completely out of line to question someone climbing at a level that you can't comprehend. You're a delusional little bag of wind who has yet to pay his dues, and until you do, your opinion carries all the weight of a ball of fluff in a windstorm. There's nothing wrong with inexperience if you try to do something about it. To try and write it off as irrelevant to the issue makes you the king of fools. No offense.
of all the nasty responses i have gotten, yours take the cake. First off, i just want to say that the little "no offense" thing at the bottom was a humorous touch. right, you call me a "delusional little bag of wind" "zero" and "the king of fools", but u didn't mean to offend me, right? u just wanted to educate me and help me right?
inexperience (a bit of an oxy-moron there...) doesn't neccesarily invalidate my points, nor does it mean my querries should be dismissed. If only people who HAD trad lead 5.14 could ask or answer any questions pertaining to trad leading 5.14, you would be hardpressed to find 3 people on this site who could discuss it. have you? no? then according to your rules, u should stfu. if u have, then congradulations and i have nothing but the uptmost respect for you as a climber. sorry, as a person in general u still seem like a dick.
i'm just speculating here. thinking. u should try it some time. talking is sometimes involved. until i learn telepathy, i will need to "talk" to ask people questions and further my knowledge. so you never asked questions? i guess you just obtained ur vast wells of knowledge thru osmosis or something? or maybe u learned it all from experience? you have trad led SO MANY 5.14's that you know everything about them just from experience eh?
if i ever see you i would love to go climbing with you. that way me and my bros can scrutinize everything you say and do. and then my tiny 15 year old friend will flash your project in his flip flops (ok, maybe not flash... his hardest flash is V9, which translates to about 5.13c/d or so, so your 5.14 trads migh take him a few tries).
seems like u are the kind of person who does a lot of solo climbing....http://www.rockclimbing.com/...cles/view.php?ID=196
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hkstuey
Aug 20, 2003, 6:28 AM
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In reply to: this seems completely pointless to me. - i just can't see the significance of bothering to do these as trad ascents if u work it on TR first.
You've obviously never done any bold trad routes then
even if the route is worked its no guarantee of success and there's still a fairly hefty amount of mind games going on when you get on the route
one thing to remember is that alot of these routes are extremely technical and the chances of on-sighting them is slim (except for climbers of extreme talent, both physically and mentally)
"why not bolt them" the reason a lot of hard trad routes are trad routes is the fact they are in areas with strong anti-bolt ethics (this is the case in the UK, not sure about your side of the pond) and bolts simply wouldn't be tolerated - hence its either settle for a top-rope (the lowest form of climbing), atain a higher level of mental and physical ability or headpoint the climb
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ptone
Aug 20, 2003, 7:12 AM
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The british call it headpointing, working some climbs on tr first 'cause alot of those hard gritstone climbs are x rated monsters. Dialing all the moves that way gives them a fighting chance, but IMO doesn't diminish the fact that when they send, they send clean.
There are lots of hard trad lines that aren't 'R' or '''X' rated which have great protection, if you are strong enough and good enough a climber to place it.
I kinda agree with the idea that until you are good and strong enough to hop on one of these x-rated climbs and decide yourself whether you want to lead or work it, you shouldn't be judging those who can.
And I don't think I'm the only one who feels that if there is a way to protect the climb yourself, it should not get a bolt. The climber just has to work hard to get skillful enough to climb hard trad.
Bolts are for unprotectable faces or climbs, where there are no possible placements.
peace
p
OH, and if you're consistently getting a hard time from others, maybe take a moment to look at your own writing first.
Youth does deserve extra patience, generally because it seems to be so much harder for them to see from other perspectives- so often what seems trivial to older folk can be a crisis to a kid.
Seriously tho...
If iit hurts to get stung, quit waving your own stinger around!
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ronamick
Aug 20, 2003, 7:59 PM
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Dude, you are so good at making controversial statements, then picking apart the reply in a line by line refutation that inevitably makes you seem either correct, being picked on unfairly, or possed of the wherewithall to know what you're talking about. Perhaps you should spend less time defending your position and more time considering other people's point of view. Being inexperienced, you would do well to listen and learn from those around you instead of making assertations and judgements.
My point was not that one must be a 5.14 climber to be qualified to talk about 5.14. The majority of climbers have no chance of reaching that level of ability no matter how hard they try. But someone who has spent years trying to reach their maximum potential in climbing, regardless of the level that they attain, has something in common with those at the top of the sport. They know the same frustrations, ups and downs, mental, physical and emotional strain and the sacrifices required to attain the highest possible level of ability and personal achievement in climbing.
It's the journey that teaches, not the destination. You lack that experience, thus there are many things you cannot know.
If i come across like an a-hole, consider why that might be, rather than jumping to quick condemnation. My harsh response is due to the presumptious tone and rash judgements that you tend to make. If lots of people seem irritated by what you say, you need to consider why, rather than leaping to your own defense time and time again. The attitude that you need to pick apart every conflicting point of view shows a closed mind.
You have a knack for logical analysis, and come to defensible conclusions based on sound logic. That doesn't mean that is the RIGHT conclusion. Much in the world defies logic. Emotions and instincts are often the driving force behind an issue, and are immune to logic. Consider the other guy's entire situation, walk in his shoes. Keep your mind open.
You seem to be a bright and earnest individual, and I'm not out to dis you, but when you make inflammatory comments you will receive replies in kind. I would love to climb with you sometime. If you make it to San Diego, look me up.
As to my ability, at 47 I'm past my prime, and dealing with the harsh reality of declining physical ability, and I hate it. I still climb 5.11, but everything is getting harder. Your friends would get little satisfaction out of burning me off. At my best I was a solid 5.12 climber and decent boulderer, capable of pulling a hard one out of the haton occasion. But I do know about chasing the dream.
Peace. Keep up the enthusiasm, it's good for the soul.
Ron
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ronamick
Aug 20, 2003, 8:04 PM
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The "no offense" was tongue in cheek, of course.
You take everything so dang seriously!
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ptone
Aug 24, 2003, 11:24 PM
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Ron--that was weird--I thought for a sec you were replying to me, and though some of what you said made good sense, I wondered how you could have intuited the remains of my younger ego from the little I shared...
As one who got into climbing past my prime, I rarely think about grades past serving as an indicator of my own choices in an unfamiliar area. I totally agree with the zen and the art of climbing approach, and I've found I usually learn much more from a solid 5.10 climber with 10+ yrs of experience than from a 5.14 climber who doesn't know why backclipping is dangerous.
To me, hard climbing is when I am at the limit of my ability--strength, agility, technique. I'm not setting any records, never will. I have trouble understanding how it could matter so much how one practices the moves, sequence, stances, etc of a climb on the edge or beyond their ability before finally leading it.
Perhaps someone could explain this to me.
If I have a chance to practice moves, memorize stances and sequences, I know the climb is infinitely easier than onsight. Why is it a big deal how I practice the climb? Once the onsight/flash opportunity is gone, all you can do is work to finally send it, if you still want to.
...or we could let this thread die...
:wink:
p
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camhead
Aug 24, 2003, 11:44 PM
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if I may say so, I think that hard trad has kind of hit a backwater more than bouldering or sport. I mean, how hard were folks bouldering or doing sport twnety years ago?
It was nearly twenty years ago that Peter Croft was onsighting 5.13b hard trad. Now, in 2003, it is STILL major news when Yuji, Tommy, or Beth onsight 5.13b. And how long ago was Kauk's "Magic Line?"
Just an observation.
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climber_monkey
Aug 25, 2003, 12:02 AM
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No matter how hard da route is, it is up to the leader tto decide wether to place pro or not. I ve done plenty of easy routes that have pro that probably will fail. U never know what placement will hold. Once on the Nose, at looking glass, NC ; I had a #2 BD Camalot rip out of a solid crack , when a #.5 BD Camalot in a shallow EYEBROW held. Like I said u never know. Also, U NEVER SHOULD BOLT A ROUTE IF IT CAN BE DONE TRAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OVER BOLTING IS WHY LOTS OF CRAGS AROUND DA COUNTRY THAT GET SHUT DOWN BECAUSE OF OVER BOLTING..............
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rockprodigy
Aug 25, 2003, 3:48 PM
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In reply to: I have trouble understanding how it could matter so much how one practices the moves, sequence, stances, etc of a climb on the edge or beyond their ability before finally leading it. Perhaps someone could explain this to me. Why is it a big deal how I practice the climb?
It matters for the same reason it matters whether a bolt is placed on rappel or on lead. For many people, it matters how the bolt is placed. The argument for lead bolting is that it "preserves the ground-up style of ascent". The idea being, that if the pitch were high on a wall (where you couldn't walk around the back to rap off or TR) you would be able to lead it from the bottom up.
If it is unfair to place a bolt on TR, then by similarity, it is unfair to rehearse a route on TR. Whether you are a proponent of one style or the other is irrelevant. As for me, I'm a proud rap-bolter!
To me, it seems hypocritical to TR a route first, then lead it. If the route is too dangerous to climb from the ground up, then bolt it, or TR it and leave it as a TR. The final "headpoint" is just a circus trick as far as I'm concerned.
The entire point of leading a route derives from the very roots of our sport...mountaineering, where you climb from the ground up. If a ground up ascent requires you to first rehearse it heavily on TR, what's the point? Why do the final act of leading it? For your ego? If you only care about enjoying the climbing, then you should be satisfied with a clean TR. If you are interested in preparing yourself for longer routes, are you going to rap down and rehearse those before leading as well? If the answer is "no" (it should be), then why lead this route now? ...to brag to your friends, that's why. It just seems inconsistent to me.
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hellclimber
Aug 25, 2003, 4:32 PM
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In reply to: The entire point of leading a route derives from the very roots of our sport...mountaineering, where you climb from the ground up. If a ground up ascent requires you to first rehearse it heavily on TR, what's the point? Why do the final act of leading it? For your ego? If you only care about enjoying the climbing, then you should be satisfied with a clean TR. If you are interested in preparing yourself for longer routes, are you going to rap down and rehearse those before leading as well? If the answer is "no" (it should be), then why lead this route now? ...to brag to your friends, that's why. It just seems inconsistent to me.
Haven't read the whole thread so this post might be out of context and not on the subject but I just can't resist. I disagree with what you are saying here rockprodigy. You ask why lead after doing it on TR. For me the answer is simple. It feels different and I like it better on lead. I am happy with clean TR ascents but that doesn't mean that I don't wish to lead it afterwards. I don't climb for anyone else and your assumptions about why I or anyone but yourself do things are meaningless. The roots of leading has no influence on how I feel about leading or TRing and the entire point of leading for me is not up to you to define.
hellclimber
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holmeslovesguinness
Aug 25, 2003, 4:51 PM
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[quote="rockprodigy]
The entire point of leading a route derives from the very roots of our sport...mountaineering, where you climb from the ground up.
You're also forgetting that a big part of the roots of climbing is a disdain for bolting in general and a reverance for boldness. 'Headpointing' then seems like a natural extension of those ethics - no bolts, and boldness to the extreme. I put it in the same category as free-soloing (nuts). To each his own I guess.
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b_fost
Aug 25, 2003, 4:57 PM
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double posted...oops!
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