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alpnclmbr1
Aug 25, 2003, 1:56 AM
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In reply to: Puma, when using a gri-gri, it is impossible to allow rope to slide through the device to give a dynamic belay..
Not very many people use this technique. I have only seen this used for sport and it allows for an even softer catch than jumping can provide.
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norushnomore
Aug 25, 2003, 8:44 AM
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This thread sounds like a BS to me. Jumping, running... circus.
I understand there exeptions: x rated climbs, etc but for the rest of us
modern belay devices and ropes have enough dynamic properties already.
Keep it simple, give an extra slack if needed and leave your gri-gri for the gym or top rope.
G
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hellclimber
Aug 25, 2003, 10:12 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Puma, when using a gri-gri, it is impossible to allow rope to slide through the device to give a dynamic belay.. wrong, all you have to do is hold the cam down with your non break hand. Not very many people use this technique. I have only seen this used for sport and it allows for an even softer catch than jumping can provide.
hellclimber
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solo
Aug 25, 2003, 10:19 AM
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A perfect execution of dynamic belay saved my ankles this spring. I fell off 7 meters over my last protection. Had my belayer relied on "dynamic properties of the rope and belay device" I would slam into a less than vertical slab and spend the rest of the summer in a hospital. Instead, my belayer let 3 meters of the rope slip through his figure eight (yes you can catch big falls with it) and jumped up 2 meters. That resulted in a 20 meter whipper with a soft catch in the air below an overhang. Lucky me!
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hellclimber
Aug 25, 2003, 10:21 AM
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In reply to: This thread sounds like a BS to me. Jumping, running... circus. I understand there exeptions: x rated climbs, etc but for the rest of us modern belay devices and ropes have enough dynamic properties already. Keep it simple, give an extra slack if needed and leave your gri-gri for the gym or top rope. G
Yes, of course. Keep it simple. Who needs a grigri. Use a body-belay instead... :roll: And jumping :shock: Who ever heard of anyone trying to lift both their feet simultaneously from the ground outside of a circus. Sounds quite mad :lol: Why make falling as comfortable and safe as possible when we can shock the hell out of equipment and climber alike.
hellclimber
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jt512
Aug 25, 2003, 5:19 PM
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In reply to: oh yeah - my main partner has this habit he picked up of dropping down when the leader pops, which just ends up slamming me into the rock at or above the nearest bolt. i'll have to show him yer post - thanks for the info ! -t
You need to break your partner of this habit before he breaks you. This is a statement I can back up with a $20,000 hospital bill.
-Jay
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jt512
Aug 25, 2003, 5:30 PM
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In reply to: This thread sounds like a BS to me. Jumping, running... circus. I understand there exeptions: x rated climbs, etc but for the rest of us modern belay devices and ropes have enough dynamic properties already.
Wrong. Modern ropes aren't dynamic enough to keep the leader from slamming into the wall. The typical steep sport route is one example where the dynamic belay is mandatory.
-Jay
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pbjosh
Aug 25, 2003, 5:41 PM
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In reply to: I can understand using a gri-gri on a long climb (days) when you might become inattentive but look at the numbers.
This is precisely why everyone uses a gri-gri on a wall. You ever climbed a wall?
I know people who've been dropped in lead falls on walls because their partner was asleep / bored to tears / comatose and belaying with an ATC.
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pbjosh
Aug 25, 2003, 5:43 PM
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In reply to: Puma, when using a gri-gri, it is impossible to allow rope to slide through the device to give a dynamic belay... this is where the jumping comes in. with an atc on the other hand, you can allow rope to slide through the device. imho, it is much better to use an atc on multi-pitch for the reason you described above. - ike
I think it's much better to use an ATC or Figure 8 for any and all free climbing, for this reason.
To quote the belayer of a leader who was taking 40-footers over and over in Indian Creek on some 5.13 tips horrorshow: "Sh!t man with an 8 I can drop him 50 feet without even spilling my beer."
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dirtineye
Aug 25, 2003, 6:30 PM
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The dynamic properties of your rope will not help you on a pendulum swing at all. The greatest force in a pendulum swing is delivered at the bottom of the swing, with a completely horizontal component. The rope is straight down at this point, and has only a vertical component or negative acceleration to contribute.
The force in a pendulum swing has a horizontal component at nearly every point, and this component becomes greater as you swing closer to vertical. In fact, you reach your greatest speed (and zero acceleration) and the bottom of the swing. As you start to swing back up the other side of the pendulum, you are actually under deceleration, and you slow down.
What these dynamic catch guys are saying is that if you are on an overhang, and you have enough slack so that you can fall straight down as much as possible, then the rope will do it's job and you won't get much of a pendulum into the wall. Also, if the overhang is like most of em, often the farther down you can fall (within reason) the farther away from the wall you get, and so when you do pendulum you may not even reach the wall, and certainly will reach it without much force to absorb.
If it is a choice between the ground or a ledge and the wall, I 'll take the wall, otherwise, give me slack and air time. I'm not a big fan of paying out line in a fall, but I am a fan of slack in the lead line and jumping if needed, and there are times when paying out line is the best thing to do. A good belayer can place the faller in the safest spot along the wall.
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 25, 2003, 7:29 PM
Post #36 of 105
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Puma, when using a gri-gri, it is impossible to allow rope to slide through the device to give a dynamic belay.. wrong, all you have to do is hold the cam down with your non break hand. Not very many people use this technique. I have only seen this used for sport and it allows for an even softer catch than jumping can provide. Would love to see that one tried out in a reality. Doesn't sound too bright. As far as I know, the most common (and very dangerous) error using a grigri is pilot error that somehow prevents the cam on the grigri from engaging. By using the technique you suggest here you set yourself up for such an error. Sounds bloody dangerous. If you're going to let rope slide through a belay device it seems wise not to use a grigri. When using the grigri I do it because of the auto-locking functionality, and I don't try counteracting this function. When trad climbing multipitch my trusted reverso is always with me :wink: hellclimber
The people that use this technique are not the people who would drop you with a grigri. They are the kind of people who skip the last couple bolts and then jump when they get to the anchors for fun and to save time. Merely jumping would not provide a safe catch in this situation. I am not advocating this practice, I merely pointed it out in response to the statement that it is impossible to do.
This technique scares me less than someone letting an atc purposely slip more than a couple of inches. At least with this technique if you let go of the device the falling climber stops whereas if a kink knocks your hand off the rope with an atc, the climber decks.
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hellclimber
Aug 25, 2003, 7:45 PM
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In reply to: .... The people that use this technique are not the people who would drop you with a grigri. They are the kind of people who skip the last couple bolts and then jump when they get to the anchors for fun and to save time. Merely jumping would not provide a safe catch in this situation. I am not advocating this practice, I merely pointed it out in response to the statement that it is impossible to do. This technique scares me less than someone letting an atc purposely slip more than a couple of inches. At least with this technique if you let go of the device the falling climber stops whereas if a kink knocks your hand off the rope with an atc, the climber decks.
Hmm. Skipping the last bolt and jumping doesn't prove you are a good climber does it? I have done it and consider myself a little worse off than mediocre at best. And yes, when doing this it is plenty of dynamics in the system if the belayer jumps. I still get your point but even with a good belayer using the grigri seems more dangerous than using an atc in the same fashion. It is in my opinion a lot harder to control a grigri this way as the distance the cam has to travel from full opening til complete lock off and vice versa is very short.
Kinks in the rope isn't a big deal as they won't stop me from controlling it. Just don't let go.
All of this nonsense is just my humble opinion though...
hellclimber
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norushnomore
Aug 26, 2003, 3:05 AM
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How shall I put it, may be not.
Dynamic belay notion is mostly targeted towards reducing forces on a top pro piece.
What we got here is wall slamming problem on the highly overhanging routes. There are just two parameters that define how hard you will hit the wall: length of the rope (R) and horizontal distance (D) traveled from the last protection point.
Call it slam factor: D/R
D is defined by the route and out of your control but you can easily adjust R to reduce your slam factor. More overhang: feed more rope.
Now, how high can you jump? Stand straight (don't bend your legs) on a floor and try raising your waist line at least 1' by jumping up. Good luck.
Now if you are anchored (that is a good idea) or not on a ground (multi-pitch, etc) then jumping is not an option altogether.
But you can easily feed a slack of as many feet as necessary to gain the same result as you would from jumping.
One last point: rope stretch under dynamic load is ~30%. Even with the 15 feet out (any less and you will land on your belayer) that would be about 5'. Your jumping would add another 1' at most, not that much diff.
G
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ikefromla
Aug 26, 2003, 3:12 AM
Post #39 of 105
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In reply to: In reply to: Puma, when using a gri-gri, it is impossible to allow rope to slide through the device to give a dynamic belay.. wrong, all you have to do is hold the cam down with your non break hand. Not very many people use this technique. I have only seen this used for sport and it allows for an even softer catch than jumping can provide.
by impossible, i meant dangerous... more than once i've seen folks loose control of a gri-gri... you'd think that letting go of the cam, it should lock, but it won't necessarily if the rope is already moving.
peace.
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tenn_dawg
Aug 26, 2003, 4:13 AM
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In reply to: Your jumping would add another 1' at most, not that much diff.
I'm sorry, but you are mistaken.
The vertical height of your jump, is not an issue.
Picture this example.
You have a rope around your waist, the other end of which is tied to the front bumper of a go-kart. (I know, bear with me) Now, there is about 10' of slack in the system. You start at the front bumper of the go-kart, and start running as fast as you can away from it. When you come to the end of the rope, it pulls tight, and you come slamming to a halt, your feet fly out from under you, and everyone laughs.
Now, picture the same situation, but this time, just as the rope is about to come tight, 5 big guys give the go-kart a push in your direction. The rope will pull you to a much slower stop because the kart was moving when it came tight.
The distance the kart was pushed, is not an issue. What matters, is that the energy required to set the Kart in motion came not from YOU, but from another source. Thus, it was the natural friction of the kart on the ground that pulled you to a stop, not the resistance of the kart to start moving.
I've tried really hard to explain this concept. If you simply don't believe me that it works, I just ask you to spend a little time pitching off a steep route, and prove me wrong. Go and experiment with jumping, and not jumping, THEN come back and tell me that it dosen't work.
This is a complex subject, and I feel that a large percentage of climbers are not educated in it. It seems quite counter-intuitive, and is exceedingly hard to explain.
Take it for what it's worth.
Travis
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cchildre
Jul 16, 2004, 7:55 PM
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Think of it this way. Belayer is a 170 pound male. Consider the energy that it takes to lift this body 1 foot into the air. Pulling the energy from the leaders fall. If the rope is just starting to load you will be elevated more than a foot off the ground, more energy dissapated. Also this increases the velocity of the rope through the protection and across the rock. Increased velocity = increased heat from drag, heat = energy, further dissipation from the leaders fall.
Gri-gri: I personally avoid them. My experience with them tells me they only belong on top rope. Belaying a lead, not me. Maybe if I ever get on a big wall I will change my tune but for now they will stay on the other side of the cash register.
While I am on belay I am always thinking about the worst case senario if my leader falls. Watching for nasty ledges to avoid or possible rope/climber interaction. I always try to judge where I want to put my leader if he should fall. Letting some extra line feed can come up at any moment. The worst feeling I have is when my leader falls and it suprises me. Even if I gave them the perfect pillow catch, the fact that I did not anticipate the fall I still feel guilty about my inattention.
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highminded
Jul 21, 2004, 1:11 AM
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I like all of what you wrote, but I like this especially:
In reply to: Being a good belayer takes practice, experience, and a good attitude.
A good attitude is something a lot of people don't think about. As a belayer, you've got to let go of your arrogance and keep your mind open to learning.
Excellent thoughts, thanks!
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slickjib
Jul 21, 2004, 10:10 PM
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first of all, this is a great topic! thanks for all the information. i've learned a lot about belaying from climbing with more experienced people, but in retrospect i wish i had known a lot of this stuff when i first started climbing. now i have to admit, i have never jumped as a belayer, and i've belayed my share of leaders falling. this is mostly because i'm light (105 pounds) and always get pulled way up in the air when belaying lead falls. should i change my attitude? i don't think i've climbed with anyone lighter than me before, but maybe i should jump in certain circumstances?? your advice would be appreciated.
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jt512
Jul 22, 2004, 4:39 PM
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In reply to: first of all, this is a great topic! thanks for all the information. i've learned a lot about belaying from climbing with more experienced people, but in retrospect i wish i had known a lot of this stuff when i first started climbing. now i have to admit, i have never jumped as a belayer, and i've belayed my share of leaders falling. this is mostly because i'm light (105 pounds) and always get pulled way up in the air when belaying lead falls. should i change my attitude? i don't think i've climbed with anyone lighter than me before, but maybe i should jump in certain circumstances?? your advice would be appreciated.
Getting pulled up a little sometimes is not enough of a dynamic belay. I weigh 135 and find that I have to actively dynamic belay (ie, jump or whatever) with climbers that outweigh me by 30 or 40 lb. If they outweigh me by more, then usually I can just let myself get pulled up. Likewise, one of my partners weighs about 105 lb, and unless she jumps a little, I find that she catches me too hard.
Paradoxically, it is the light climbers that tend to take the hardest falls. Light belayers get pulled up and give their heavier partners soft catches automatically. Heavier partners, who always get a soft catch, don't realize that it's important to dynamically belay their lighter partners. Since heavier climbers don't get pulled up, their lighter partners get hard catches. As a lighter climber, you'll find that, as a matter of self-preservation, you'll have to train your heavier partners to dynamically belay you. Expect resistance, especially from old-timers.
-Jay
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send513
Jul 22, 2004, 4:50 PM
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This is a great topic, but I want to know how come people think that a Gri-gri leads to a more static belay than an ATC?
Both can lock up quickly if used properly, and both can allow slack to slide if not used quickly...
I don't get it.
(real question, not an attempt at flaming :-) )
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jt512
Jul 22, 2004, 5:05 PM
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In reply to: This is a great topic, but I want to know how come people think that a Gri-gri leads to a more static belay than an ATC?
An ATC has a maximum braking force in the neighborhood of 500 lb. If your partner takes a severe fall, rope will slip through the ATC and provide a dynamic belay. A grigri, on the other hand, doesn't allow rope to slip through; it's thus a static belay device.
-Jay
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corpse
Jul 22, 2004, 6:21 PM
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To say it again - this has been a great thread.
I had an "idea", which may be dumb - but I'm just creatively thinking here (better to do it in this forum, then in the real world :) ).. But is it possible to use a screamer, or something similiar, between your harness and belay device? So if it's soo hard of a fall, regardless of what piece they are falling on and how far, you have a belay screamer - something to absorb that impact?
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buzzard
Jul 22, 2004, 7:30 PM
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I know what you guys are saying. I work at at climbing wall in SC. And our boss only wants us to teach the static belay. But here is a story for you that if I did a dynamic belay the climber would have been seriously hurt. \
I was climbing on Summersville Lake on the 4th of july. My partner was climbing Sold Out. When she got to the last bolt for her draw, the bolt was not there. She is about 50 feet in the air, her last draw is 15 feet below her. And 20 feet off the ground in a huge ledge. So do the math. Anyways she fell. I started running backwards and just dropped to the ground when the rope started to get tight. Yeah she did bang into the mountain and messed up her ankle a little bit. But she stopped three feet from smacking that ledge. Now if just did a dynamic belay it would have been 100 times worse.
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tenn_dawg
Jul 22, 2004, 8:09 PM
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In reply to: To say it again - this has been a great thread. I had an "idea", which may be dumb - but I'm just creatively thinking here (better to do it in this forum, then in the real world :) ).. But is it possible to use a screamer, or something similiar, between your harness and belay device? So if it's soo hard of a fall, regardless of what piece they are falling on and how far, you have a belay screamer - something to absorb that impact?
The force that it takes to activate a screamer is usually higher than the force it would take to pull a belayer off of the ground.
Also, I really wouldn't want to put an intentionally weak link into my belay system at my harness when jumping would be a more effective solution.
I'm glad that this thread has resurfaced. Thanks for keeping it flame free everone!
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jt512
Jul 22, 2004, 9:24 PM
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In reply to: I know what you guys are saying. I work at at climbing wall in SC. And our boss only wants us to teach the static belay. But here is a story for you that if I did a dynamic belay the climber would have been seriously hurt. \ I was climbing on Summersville Lake on the 4th of july. My partner was climbing Sold Out. When she got to the last bolt for her draw, the bolt was not there. She is about 50 feet in the air, her last draw is 15 feet below her. And 20 feet off the ground in a huge ledge. So do the math. Anyways she fell. I started running backwards and just dropped to the ground when the rope started to get tight. Yeah she did bang into the mountain and messed up her ankle a little bit. But she stopped three feet from smacking that ledge. Now if just did a dynamic belay it would have been 100 times worse.
You obviously did the right thing, but I fail to understand why you contrast what you did with a dynamic belay, as if anyone would dynamically belay in that situation.
-Jay
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