|
|
|
|
climberfamily
Sep 3, 2003, 3:16 AM
Post #1 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 2, 2003
Posts: 3
|
As a family that is relatively new to climbing.. both indoors and more recently outdoors. I'm bothered by the remarks often heard regarding beginners and TR's.
I don't believe that any of us new to the activity intentionally agravate other climbers. Our experience has been quite the opposite. Of the numerous newbies we have encountered, they have gone out of their way to ask questions when encountering locals. Trying to get the maximum out of the experience without negatively impacting the environment or other climbers.
Some of the people we spoke with don't ever expect to leave the safety of the TR. Not everyone is inclined to 'take the sharp end'. The reward for many is found in pushing ones limits.
This may be a run on thought but..
All climbers started out as beginners.. some at indoor rock gyms.. some have only climbed outdoors.
I have yet to have another climber be rude to us as beginners.. but see much in writting that disturbs me.
Just looking for any ideas on why we are discussed in such poor fashion.
Thanks for your responses.. 8)
|
|
|
|
|
philbox
Moderator
Sep 3, 2003, 3:31 AM
Post #2 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 13105
|
Topropers are certainly seen as the poor cousin of the climbing community. I`m glad that you have had a good experience as a beginner that speaks well of the general attitude of the climbing community as a whole. I see that you have never had a problem having your answers as a beginner answered, this also gladdens my heart.
You should probably be made aware of some of the angst within the overall climbing community that top roping engenders. More often than not the people who practice toproping exhibit downright dangerous habits. As it is quite cheap to get into some people just jump in with very little experience and set up very dangerous anchors with little regard to the consequences.
A trad climber spends years learning his craft and spending enormous amounts buying all the shiny bits whereas a toproper may simply walk into a climbing shop and lay a small amount of dough down and walk out with all the gear he needs without much of a clue on what it actually takes to keep him or worse others around him safe in all circumstances.
Yes the climbing community is somewhat disparaging in regards to topropers but mostly it is justified. I`m sure if you delved down into this community we have here on rc.com you will find many examples of dangerous behaviour by the toproping fraternity.
Disclaimer, this post is not aimed at any one particular person or group that may run TR activities.
|
|
|
|
|
sync
Sep 3, 2003, 3:50 AM
Post #3 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2003
Posts: 125
|
But not all top-ropers are practicing bad habits.
Some of us aren't ready to just start trad leading, and need a lot of time on a top-rope to learn how to climb.
The group I climb with primarily top-ropes, but they exhibit very good safety habits. We have some very experienced people in the group who have taught the younger and newer members proper safety.
There's nothing intrinsically bad about top-roping.
Bad safety is bad safety whether it be top-roping or trad leading.
|
|
|
|
|
drkodos
Sep 3, 2003, 3:51 AM
Post #4 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 21, 2002
Posts: 2935
|
Here is my take:
It is not beginners per se. It is the person, who after six months of weekend warrioring decides that they are ready to introduce other newbies into this new sport they love...
It is human instinct to try to teach to others what were are in the process of learning ourselves.
The problem is that in climbing the consequences can be so very final.
On another facet, I think there are experienced climbers that are truly unhappy at the glee and inhibited approach many new climbers take to the sport. Their naivitee, innocence and bubbliness as they explore this new world of risky verticality is somehow a threat to some......don't ask why, I haven't a clue as to why J Edgar Hoover persecuted homosexuals although he himself was one, or why OJ killed....some people just need to feel isolated and locked away in their own feelings. Newbies seem to threaten that existance....
For myself, its simple. The crags are overrun by the Bougeoisie and what I loved as a counter cultural pursuit that was throwing the finger at normal culture has become a mainstream, middle class pursuit. Heck, even Roofies given, date rapin' Frat Boys are climbing these days....
That corporate America successfully uses climbing to sell everything from automobiles to underarm deodorant is proof to me that the introduction of new people into the sport was orchestrated. The rags, Access Fund and the plethora of conglomerated outdoor companies that now control climbing purposefully set out to broaden the appeal for the almighty dollar. I know because I left the outdoor industry ten years ago over these very issues.
There is not as much special and unique in the pursuit as there was in the past.....Go to any spurt crag and people are drinking Starbucks....pity....
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Sep 3, 2003, 4:17 AM
Post #5 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: But not all top-ropers are practicing bad habits. Some of us aren't ready to just start trad leading, and need a lot of time on a top-rope to learn how to climb. The group I climb with primarily top-ropes, but they exhibit very good safety habits. We have some very experienced people in the group who have taught the younger and newer members proper safety. There's nothing intrinsically bad about top-roping. Bad safety is bad safety whether it be top-roping or trad leading.
And some of us have led thousands of routes around the world at a fairly high standard over the last 25 years, and still TR things once in a while. So what?
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
ptone
Sep 3, 2003, 4:59 AM
Post #6 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 5, 2003
Posts: 350
|
I think part of the answer to this is just ego stuff--unfortunately it seems for many people a reasonable self image or good feeling comes not from accomplishing a personal goal, but from being better than someone else. Whether it's owning better equipment, climbing harder routes, climbing in a riskier way (ie tr to lead to solo), or whatever, their satisfaction comes from being better than the next guy. It's a pretty ingrained part of western culture now, sad as that may be.
I started climbing with two friends not all that long ago. I'm the only one still at it--one quit cause he wasn't getting better fast enough, the other cause he was getting so angry and frustrated that it wasn't fun, cause he was comparing himself to everyone else. I did OK, and love it, but it helped that I don't really care about being better--hell, most of the people I climbed with were way better than I, but they were friendly and encouraging once I got up the nerve to say Hi, and they helped me tons!
When people answer a beginner condescendingly or in some lousy patronizing tone, try to remember they are just trying to make up for some insecurity of their own. Most of us see it and know, we just don't say much. In some way we are probably all guilty of some of that kind of thing, I know I am, and usually after I feel pretty dumb.
You can go to the same room with the same people in it twice, and love it once and hate it once, just because one time you focused on one half of the group, and the other time you saw the other half.
Look for the good that is here, brush off the bad.
There are lots of really kind, solid and supportive people on this site.
Sice I started climbing, I've found most of the climbers I've met are great humans, friendly and nonpretentious, helpful and honest.
I think the negative ones are just louder, so you notice them first.
Just keep climbing, and look for the good in the world.
Remember it doesn't matter a rats poo if that other guy can grab that hold you're struggling to touch.
Just hold that feeling that you get when you fire up and reach it the first time...and you stick it!
Your brain told you 'you'll never do that' but you DID!
No one can touch that feeling you get inside, it's yours!
And hopefully you'll reach for it again :wink:
peace,
-p
|
|
|
|
|
rcaret
Sep 3, 2003, 6:48 AM
Post #7 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 30, 2002
Posts: 227
|
As with any group of people there has to be a few that enjoy ridiculing others and since newbies are such an easy target and the same goes for Top roping and Gym climbers as well , The assorted few wants to portray themselves as better than others.
The majority of climbers are very good people and all you have to do is look at the wealth of information on this web site , All donated by avid climbers wanting to answer question from new climbers as well as seasoned climbers .
If you love to climb be secure in yourself , Climb and do not worry about the few that joke around a little to much.
|
|
|
|
|
sync
Sep 3, 2003, 2:53 PM
Post #8 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2003
Posts: 125
|
In reply to: And some of us have led thousands of routes around the world at a fairly high standard over the last 25 years, and still TR things once in a while. So what?
I was responding to this quote:
In reply to: Topropers are certainly seen as the poor cousin of the climbing community.
Philbox was lumping all top-ropers into a single category.
|
|
|
|
|
flynnypek
Sep 3, 2003, 3:12 PM
Post #9 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 28, 2002
Posts: 309
|
I climb to have fun whether is TR, bouldering, or just climbing a tree... That's the most important thing to worry about... if others don't agree with what you do... they can go lay by their dish... :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
deleted
Deleted
Sep 3, 2003, 3:24 PM
Post #10 of 30
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
because some folks enjoy belittling others. it makes them feel superior and important.
pay no attention to these people. concentrate instead on enjoying yourself and being a good ambassador of the sport.
|
|
|
|
|
redpoint73
Sep 3, 2003, 3:33 PM
Post #11 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 1717
|
ptone has it right. Anyone who is rudely putting down someone else is obviously just trying to compensate for a lack of self-confidence. They inflate their fragile egos, and make themselves feel better about who they are, by displaying how "superior " they are to those of less experience/skill. You see it in all types of activities, whether it be sports, hobbies, you name it. The term "STFU NOOB" existed on Internet forums long before it was ever used on RC.com. And you see that type of things in online video games all the time.
Of course, you are going to witness this type of behavior much more online than in real life. There are little, if any, consequences to being rude online. Plus, many times it is just young kids spewing nonsense ( I feel very sorry for any grown adults that feel like they have to tear down top ropers or beginners).
What those people are saying has nothing to do with what you are actually doing, and more with what is going on in their heads. Climbing is largely an individual sport. You are not competeing with them (unless you want to be). So don't pay attention to what they say.
And if you get sick of them cutting down TR, tell them Dave Graham top ropes!!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Sep 3, 2003, 3:51 PM
Post #12 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
It's all climbing.
Unfortunately, some feel the need to catagorize and rank in an effort to feel like they are elite, or are above a vast majority.
|
|
|
|
|
vertx
Sep 3, 2003, 4:07 PM
Post #13 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2003
Posts: 53
|
Most climbers started in the sport TR'ing. No one debuts with a 5.11 tead lead. I think as climbers evolve in the sport, they tend to forget how they got where they are. Climbing is about getting from the bottom to the top, challenging yourself physically and mentally, not about how you accomplished it. It gives a new climber the confidence to challenge themselves, while LEARNING the sport. The bottom line is, its still climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
elvislegs
Sep 3, 2003, 4:18 PM
Post #14 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2002
Posts: 3148
|
In reply to: I have yet to have another climber be rude to us as beginners.. but see much in writting that disturbs me.
This is important. The internet affords an anonymity that many abuse. These people would not talk tough to you or any other in person. I think Mtngeo's advice to you regarding them is wise.
Make topropers everywhere look good: be safe, don't take no Sh*t from no body, and have fun. WHo can fault you for that?
Hope your family has a good time on the rock.
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Sep 3, 2003, 4:19 PM
Post #15 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
My theory: everyone wants to feel better than someone else. I know *I* take pride in the fact that I'll hop on the sharp end because I am pushing myself beyond a certain comfort level that I would enjoy primarily top roping. That's why I still boulder, though I am terrible at it, and that's why I do trad, sport, and now am getting into aid. Gotta keep seeing what I can do.
Sometimes you can't always top rope. Sometimes you gotta lead to get to anchors. And then, at that point, why not just lead?
|
|
|
|
|
robbovius
Sep 3, 2003, 4:28 PM
Post #16 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 8406
|
In reply to: More often than not the people who practice toproping exhibit downright dangerous habits. ... Yes the climbing community is somewhat disparaging in regards to topropers but mostly it is justified. Disclaimer, this post is not aimed at any one particular person or group that may run TR activities.
except for the last disclaimer, your statements are nonsense! at the relatively small crags (80 feet and under) I climb with regularity multiple times each week), top roping is the norm, and unsafe anchors are definitely the exception to the rule, with the unsafe stuff being limited to the occasional individual.
your "more often than not " about people toproping usafely statement is pure crap and belies your own prejudice.
and if as you claim "this post is not aimed at any one particular person or group that may run TR activities" after your previous blanket generalities, exactly who ARE you talking about?
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Sep 3, 2003, 4:32 PM
Post #17 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: In reply to: And some of us have led thousands of routes around the world at a fairly high standard over the last 25 years, and still TR things once in a while. So what? I was responding to this quote: In reply to: Topropers are certainly seen as the poor cousin of the climbing community. Philbox was lumping all top-ropers into a single category.
sync,
I was agreeing with you. I added my comments to your post only to point out that other climbers (besides newbies) TR sometimes.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
canadian_usc
Sep 3, 2003, 8:06 PM
Post #18 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2003
Posts: 53
|
They pick on beginner climbers because they are not ask good and don't know as much. By all means I am still learning, but it is alot harder to pick on a 5.13 or 5.14 climber because you'd just end up looking like a DA.
|
|
|
|
|
antigrav
Sep 3, 2003, 9:04 PM
Post #19 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 18, 2003
Posts: 215
|
One has to ask oneself, "why on earth not use topropes exclusively?!"
If you climb because you enjoy performing the moves, advancing the body upward, fighting and beating gravity, the rope-stuff is just a safety net you hope you don't have to use. And a toprope does that job the best way!
(Of course, if the goal is to do some multi-pitch mountain scaling or something, leading would have to enter the equation...)
Just my 5 cents...
|
|
|
|
|
sync
Sep 4, 2003, 3:25 AM
Post #20 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2003
Posts: 125
|
In reply to: sync, I was agreeing with you. I added my comments to your post only to point out that other climbers (besides newbies) TR sometimes. Curt
Oh... :oops: sorry.
Yeah, there are some in our group who have climbed for a very long time and they top-rope with us. I don't see that as in any way inferior to any other type of climbing. It's all good.
:D
|
|
|
|
|
rockvoyager
Sep 4, 2003, 4:26 AM
Post #21 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 84
|
There is a natural progression to climbing. Not everyones progression is identical. Mine went something like this.
Toprope
easy lead
hard lead
slab
runout, nasty, scary lead
easy trad
hard trad
Inter-mixed with all that is bouldering, traversing, rope soloing, free soloing and first accents. What does all that mean. Nothing. You climb for your reasons, in your style. I'll climb for mine in my style. Lead when you're ready, top-rope forever if that's what you want (of course there are some TRing ethics you need to learn). If you're worried about some of the folks on this site bad-mouthing the type of climbing you like to do, you had better grab your ass and hang on because you're in for a rough road.
In reply to: The majority of climbers are very good people and all you have to do is look at the wealth of information on this web site , All donated by avid climbers wanting to answer question from new climbers as well as seasoned climbers .
How true, but be real careful when taking advice from this or any other site.
Brad
|
|
|
|
|
climberfamily
Sep 4, 2003, 12:58 PM
Post #22 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 2, 2003
Posts: 3
|
Wow..
Thanks for all the great replies..
We were anxious to go climbing at some new (to us) outdoor sites.
Mostly concerned about setting up TR's and having issues with other climbers.
Now I realize that it's more important to get out there and climb... leave the worries behind and enjoy ourselves.
Great Beta..
Todd
|
|
|
|
|
redpoint73
Sep 4, 2003, 1:26 PM
Post #23 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 1717
|
In reply to: We were anxious to go climbing at some new (to us) outdoor sites. Mostly concerned about setting up TR's and having issues with other climbers.
Just be safe and courteous of what is going on around you, and you need not worry. Online behavior is very different from real world. You will find that most climbers are friendly folks. I've not had too many instances where I have met actual rude climbers outside. And in those few cases, it was easy enough for me to just finish the climb I was doing, and move on.
If someone confronts you, it will likely be for safety issues (as some have already mentioned), or etiquette. If its a safety concern, then try to listen to their advice and be civil. As far as etiquette, just try to follow common courtesy. Not sure if you need tips on this, but if you do: Don't leave ropes hanging idle (unless the crag is REALLY vacant). Only put up enough rope(s) for the number of pairs (climber/belayer) climbing. Once you are done, pull them down. Keep your gear/packs in a small area, away from the base of other climbs or the trail. If you accidentally knock down or drop rocks/gear from the top of the cliff or while climbing, always yell "rock". Likewise, yell "rope" before you drop your rope.
If you are conscious of your actions and those around you, you will almost always have a pleasant experience at the crags. I hope you are not offended by me giving this simple tips. But you mentioned that you are relatively new to climbing outside. And the above items will usually help avoid any conflict at the crag.
|
|
|
|
|
allan_thomson
Sep 4, 2003, 9:40 PM
Post #24 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 12, 2003
Posts: 596
|
I've got a bit more of a debate about it going on here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=38981
|
|
|
|
|
crackaddict
Sep 4, 2003, 9:52 PM
Post #25 of 30
(3656 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2000
Posts: 1279
|
There is nothing worng with TR'ing.
Anyone who ties into a rope and falls on a rope is a toproper. Sport climbing leaders are the biggest TR climbers out there.
Anytime you fall or hang and then get back on route you are toproping.
The only difference is that your anchors are'nt on the top of the route.
The only time you are leading is when you are above your pro! :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
