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ninjaslut
Aug 29, 2003, 1:47 PM
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I've been using only webbing and 'biners to build toprope anchors for outdoor climbing. Basically, I lash one individual length of webbing around each of the one to three trees in my anchor system. Each individual runner runs directly to the two locking 'biners through which the rope is threaded. If I have three runners, I tie each individually into the 'biners using an overhand knot on a bight, but equalizing this way is a pain in my @ss, usually requiring me to retie numerous times to get the tension right. Is there an easier way to equalize three individual strands of Webbing?
Bonus Question: What's the best safety knot on webbing for stopping the tail of the overhand-on-a-bight knots from creeping?
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rrrADAM
Aug 29, 2003, 2:17 PM
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Use a water knot if you are making continuous loops first off.
Just use two solid trees, and have the TR biners close enough. The third is just a back up, so a little slack is fine.
In a perfect world, you would use one piece cordolette style, and pull to the shape of a "W" in direction of TR biners, and tie off with an 8 or overhand.
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oldrkr
Aug 29, 2003, 2:33 PM
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what rrradam said.
use waterknot in lieu of overhand on a bight.
I keep a 25' piece of webbing and a 20' 7mm cord pre-tied for use as webolete/cordolete with my TR gear. easiest/quickest way to equalize 2-3 anchor points. Unless I'm teaching someone to set up anchors, and then I make them mess with it until they get them equalized (evil I know) but, practise drills it in their skulls. Backup/safety knot dble fishermans.
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bostonclimbah
Aug 29, 2003, 2:37 PM
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Dude, based on your description, there are some very serious flaws in your system that need attention before equalization (I'm not trying to be a smart ass here so forgive me if I do). First, it sounds like your using your webbing in single strands instead of a sling tied with water knots. If that's the case, stop. Start tying the webbing into a sling with a water knot and leave an 8 - 10 " tail (back it up with a double fishermen's if you want). Depending on where you climb and the anchors available, equalizing may just be a pain that you have to live with or switch systems and start using static lines for your anchors. Second, even if you were using the webbing in a single strand, I wouldn't use the overhand on a bight (I'm sure someone will argue this).
As for equalization, again there too many ways to do this to cover here. As always, it depends on situation.
I see that you are from Mass. To enjoy most places around here you will need a mix of tied slings ranging from 20 - 50 ft (20 and 30 mostly). This will give a great deal of flexibility for most TR areas.
There's a bunch of other stuff that really can't be covered here. I would recomend meeting up with Rob and company from the MASS Climbers thread. They TR a lot and are really competent climbers that can set up bomber anchors and give you solid advice.
I apologize if I've made any invalid assumptions about your system so please don't take any offense.
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keinangst
Aug 29, 2003, 2:52 PM
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1. You said "one to three slings"--NEVER use just one. It's acceptable (if no other substitute) to use one piece of natural pro, such as a large tree, but always run at least two slings to it.
2. I have no reservations about using 1" tubular singly, rather than waterknotted or hitched doubly around a tree/boulder. Again, as long as you're redundant, there's no gate impingement on the biners, and your webbing is in good shape, you will have nothing to worry about.
3. Equalization: Run a couple slings several feet short of the cliff edge until the ends are pretty close to side-by-side. Stick single, (preferably) locking biners through the loop (or bight, if run singly). Using a cordalette-style static equalization is my preference here (1" webbing or 7mm cord). If that doesn't make sense, get a good book and ask a qualified expert! The simpler way, which you made mention of, is just to pull the runners taut and tie them together in an overhand. Of course, this gets tougher the more runner you're using, as well as with larger angles between them--which is where the above static eq. is a better choice.
4. I usually build a main point and a redirect point when setting up TR. That keeps you from having to sit right on/near the cliff edge while trying to equalize. It's much easier to equalize in a safe spot--main point--then just toss a couple of equal-length slings with biners off the edge for your redirect point (rope-bearing point). Just watch for abrasion potential, and protect with some sort of sheath if needed--I like an old tube sock with the toe cut out.
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ninjaslut
Aug 29, 2003, 3:31 PM
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In reply to: ... (I'm not trying to be a smart ass here so forgive me if I do). ...
No problem at all. I'm just looking for advice so feel free to point out if I'm being a dumb@ss about anything. Given the stakes, I can take any potential embarrassment.
And yes, I am using 1" tubular webbing singly, because the trees at Crow Hill are pretty far away from the ledges. Am curious what the inherent fault with using webbing singly is. (Sorry, I'm not trying to be argumentative; just want to understand.)
Now, if one bomber tree is 35' away and I have two 50' lengths of webbing, I would keep all webbing independent. I'd tie one end of a 50' to the tree, another to the two opposed 'biners. Then I'd back that up with another independent, single 50' piece of webbing tied the same way. Then I'd further back that up with a similar setup on another tree tied in the with the 100' webbing. This is a bad idea? If I use the webbing like a sling, it's going to be half as long and have the same strength as a strand. Why bother?
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ninjaslut
Aug 29, 2003, 3:33 PM
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In reply to: 1. You said "one to three slings"--NEVER use just one. It's acceptable (if no other substitute) to use one piece of natural pro, such as a large tree, but always run at least two slings to it.
Sorry about that. I phrased it incorrectly. At the very least, if there is only one peice of natural pro, I am still using two independant lengths of webbing, albeit singly.
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keinangst
Aug 29, 2003, 3:53 PM
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In reply to: Now, if one bomber tree is 35' away and I have two 50' lengths of webbing, I would keep all webbing independent. I'd tie one end of a 50' to the tree, another to the two opposed 'biners. Then I'd back that up with another independent, single 50' piece of webbing tied the same way. Then I'd further back that up with a similar setup on another tree tied in the with the 100' webbing. This is a bad idea? If I use the webbing like a sling, it's going to be half as long and have the same strength as a strand. Why bother?
I think I follow your logic, and it's pretty sound. However, my vocabulary tends to equate "backup" with "shock load" :shock: :wink:
Try stretching the two pieces of single webbing to an equalized point--that is, an estimation of the direction and angle of the force to be applied. Now take the two loose ends of each piece of 50' webbing, overlap them, and tie them both together in an overhand-on-a-bight. Voila, redundancy. This knot is easy to tie, provided the angle between the two strands is pretty narrow. If you're satisfied with two anchors, that's that.
Now, depending on how far from the edge you are, you can just slap a couple of short slings through two biners (at least one locker) on the bight, a couple more biners (ditto) at the other end of the short sling, and toss it over the edge to check for clearance and impingement.
Please be sure to try all of this well before ever using it. If you have a basic understanding of anchors, it will all make sense when you try it. Look at each point in the chain and ask yourself: "Do I have at least one backup for each element?"
Anchor runners tied together--2 loops. 2 biners for the main point. 2 slings running to the redirect. 2 biners at the redirect. No gate impingement anywhere. Rope clear of rock (preferably hanging free).
It sounds complicated, but I think this is the easiest way to set up a safe TR, with the exception of using a Woodson sling, which I won't get into right now. :wink:
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bostonclimbah
Aug 29, 2003, 4:09 PM
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I here ya. Stuff at CH can be a challenge to rig. In fact, CH is a perfect candidate for using static lines instead of webbing but that's a whole different animal.
That said, if you have 2 50's and a 100' piece of webbing, I can't really think of any climbs at CH that couldn't be set up using those sizes in a tied sling. But we're not here to argue.
As for using webbing singly (is "singly" a word?). Sure it's strong enough if it's equalized and for the most part, TR falls are not that hard (though a few climbs at CH would prove to the contrary). It's more a matter of opinion I suppose but you won find me doing it. Doesn't make it wrong, it's just not my bag. Especially when there are so many options available before resorting to that. Just my $.02...
Keep your eye on the MASS thread and hook up on a climb with them. I'd be happy to show you some of the stuff I use if I'm around. In fact Everest Day is coming up on the 13th and there will be a bunch of people at QQ.
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ninjaslut
Aug 29, 2003, 4:55 PM
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In reply to: Try stretching the two pieces of single webbing to an equalized point--that is, an estimation of the direction and angle of the force to be applied. Now take the two loose ends of each piece of 50' webbing, overlap them, and tie them both together in an overhand-on-a-bight. Voila, redundancy. This knot is easy to tie, provided the angle between the two strands is pretty narrow. If you're satisfied with two anchors, that's that.
This I have done, but that's what leads me to ask about the safety knot for the overhand on a bight. I mean, that overhand loop just looks sketchy with webbing, particularly when you're tying it with multiple strands overlaid on eachother. What's the best safety for that?
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meataxe
Aug 29, 2003, 6:49 PM
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This is what I have been taught by a climbing instructor and is a common practice for toproping on the Niagara escarpment:
[*:d321d02f55]single 1" webbing is strong (approx. 5000lb?)--doubling it doesn't double the strength
[*:d321d02f55]girth hitch two or more strands to bomb-proof anchors (eg. live, healthy trees > 6 inches)
[*:d321d02f55]pull both strands to an equalization point, low enough over the cliff edge to avoid obstructions or interference with the biners.
[*:d321d02f55]tie an overhand loop (overhand on bight). Back up the loop with keeper knots (double overhand -- looks like half a double fishermans knot)
[*:d321d02f55]use double, opposed locking 'biners through the loop.
[*:d321d02f55]tether your harness to a tree or other protection with your rope or a piece of webbing before you start to set up the anchor. I know of two avoidable local deaths of experienced climbers setting up toprope anchors.
[*:d321d02f55]use your own best judgement or rely on professional instruction, the instructions you get the web may not be clearly written (or the authors may be insane :P )
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ninjaslut
Aug 29, 2003, 7:08 PM
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Thanks Meataxe. I do hope you're not insane, because that seems to be exactly what I've been doing when I'm only using two lengths of webbing. (Except for the keeper knots.)
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treehugger
Aug 29, 2003, 7:25 PM
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In reply to: single 1" webbing is strong (approx. 5000lb?)--doubling it doesn't double the strength
My only concern with single strand vs. double would be abrasion cutting through the single strand. Of course, anyone paying attention should catch something like this and either protect the webbing or place it differently, not to mention that this is the reason we use multiple anchors to begin with. Still, at the risk of sounding like I don't want to trust my equipment, why not minimize risk whenever possible?
I've set long webbing anchors and loops sometimes seems to hold in place a bit better, and rub a little less.
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arlen
Aug 30, 2003, 3:11 AM
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Broadly speaking, you equalize with one sling of a set length and you adjust the other to position the TR anchor correctly, right? I do that 2 ways, ideally:
1. Use the method with a static line that Don Mellor describes in the Trailside climbing book. Basically you tie one end to a tree, then use the other end to equalize/position the anchor and give it a "tensionless wrap" around another tree, secured with a biner. Pretty neat.
2. Use a 1" sling at close to the right length tied or girthed around a tree, then whip out my hand-tied 1" webbing daisy chain tied or girthed around another tree. clip it to the closest one that works, and secure any remaining daisy with a biner.
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geezergecko
Aug 30, 2003, 2:26 PM
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If I have two or three runners to tie into the same biners then I first equalize without tying a knot to determine runner length and then carefully undo the runners keeping track where each runner folded around the biners. Then I tie water knots on a bight into each runner. Basically you mark the length with a fold in the webbing. Clothes pins or something would help but I never remember to bring these. Just tying knots and trying to figure out how much a knot shortens a length is the tedious method.
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redpoint73
Aug 30, 2003, 5:25 PM
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In reply to: My only concern with single strand vs. double would be abrasion cutting through the single strand.
It would take a ridiculous amount of movement at the anchor and abrasion to sever a piece of tubular webbing. If this ever happens, you have some serious problems with how you anchor is set up.
I use webbing singly all the time. Thats why you have 3 independent anchors. Even if one piece of webbing is severed, you still have 2 more. Also, its much easier ot equalize
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mtnrsq
Aug 30, 2003, 8:09 PM
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Some good points re: setting up toprope climbs. Make sure you practice and are comfortable with the results - get someone (w/experience) to look over your set-up.
I would tend to agree that webbing is plenty strong, but it doesn't have the greatest abrasion resistance. Depending on your local area - you may have sections that are not readily visible and you may not see points of abrasion. Lowering, falling, etc. can produce a surprising bit of movement as you load/unload the system.
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maxter
Aug 30, 2003, 9:53 PM
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I use a double bowline knot to equalize. Fast and easy to equalize. Use runners for long extension and tie to bowline loops. Drop ends over edge to get the length and tie the figure-8 knot. Then I tie one more runner to the 8 for a backup. Use a fishermans knot on all the tails for safety.
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adamtd
Sep 6, 2003, 4:36 AM
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pick-up a copy of "Climbing Anch9ors" by John Long, Learn it, study it, love it. It's a great resource. Study cordellettes. You can do everything with a lopp of webbing that you can do with a cordollette.
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 6, 2003, 7:47 AM
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In reply to: I've been using only webbing and 'biners to build toprope anchors for outdoor climbing. Basically, I lash one individual length of webbing around each of the one to three trees in my anchor system. Each individual runner runs directly to the two locking 'biners through which the rope is threaded. If I have three runners, I tie each individually into the 'biners using an overhand knot on a bight, but equalizing this way is a pain in my @ss, usually requiring me to retie numerous times to get the tension right. Is there an easier way to equalize three individual strands of Webbing?
In reply to: Bonus Question: What's the best safety knot on webbing for stopping the tail of the overhand-on-a-bight knots from creeping?
In reply to: Dude, based on your description, there are some very serious flaws in your system that need attention before equalization (I'm not trying to be a smart ass here so forgive me if I do). First, it sounds like your using your webbing in single strands instead of a sling tied with water knots. If that's the case, stop. Start tying the webbing into a sling with a water knot and leave an 8 - 10 " tail (back it up with a double fishermen's if you want). (snip) Second, even if you were using the webbing in a single strand, I wouldn't use the overhand on a bight (I'm sure someone will argue this). I see that you are from Mass. To enjoy most places around here you will need a mix of tied slings ranging from 20 - 50 ft (20 and 30 mostly). This will give a great deal of flexibility for most TR areas.
I would tie your slings into loops with a water knot backed up with double overhands. (because a water knot will slip under cyclical loading, 3 inch tails after the backup) This will give you one 50 ft and two 25 foot slings.
A loop is approximately twice as strong as a single strand of the same material. I can’t believe no one mentioned this as it is one of the most basic tenets in climbing!
In reply to: 4. I usually build a main point and a redirect point when setting up TR. That keeps you from having to sit right on/near the cliff edge while trying to equalize. It's much easier to equalize in a safe spot--main point--then just toss a couple of equal-length slings with biners off the edge for your redirect point (rope-bearing point). Just watch for abrasion potential, and protect with some sort of sheath if needed--I like an old tube sock with the toe cut out.
In reply to: Now, if one bomber tree is 35' away and I have two 50' lengths of webbing, I would keep all webbing independent. I'd tie one end of a 50' to the tree, another to the two opposed 'biners. Then I'd back that up with another independent, single 50' piece of webbing tied the same way. Then I'd further back that up with a similar setup on another tree tied in the with the 100' webbing. This is a bad idea? If I use the webbing like a sling, it's going to be half as long and have the same strength as a strand. Why bother?
In this case I would use your fifty footer your two 25 ft slings combined for a backup off the same tree. Sometimes you need to have a directional to keep the anchor from sliding around, figure something out. In any case if your using two trees to anchor from there should not be an angle greater then 60 degrees between the slings.(less is better)
Btw: girth hitches cause a loss of 30% to 40% strength in a sling.
What constitutes a bomber tree. For myself it is 6 inches minumum (preferable bigger, especially for a single anchor), healthy and well rooted.
In reply to: This is what I have been taught by a climbing instructor and is a common practice for toproping on the Niagara escarpment:
[*:c4eda5a2db]single 1" webbing is strong (approx. 5000lb?)--doubling it doesn't double the strength
[*:c4eda5a2db]girth hitch two or more strands to bomb-proof anchors (eg. live, healthy trees > 6 inches)
[*:c4eda5a2db]pull both strands to an equalization point, low enough over the cliff edge to avoid obstructions or interference with the biners.
[*:c4eda5a2db]tie an overhand loop (overhand on bight). Back up the loop with keeper knots (double overhand -- looks like half a double fishermans knot)
[*:c4eda5a2db]use double, opposed locking 'biners through the loop.
[*:c4eda5a2db]tether your harness to a tree or other protection with your rope or a piece of webbing before you start to set up the anchor. I know of two avoidable local deaths of experienced climbers setting up toprope anchors.
[*:c4eda5a2db]use your own best judgement or rely on professional instruction, the instructions you get the web may not be clearly written (or the authors may be insane :P )
1) a loop is twice as strong as a strand, two strands is twice as strong as a strand.
2) How do you girth hitch a strand? You don’t.
In reply to: Broadly speaking, you equalize with one sling of a set length and you adjust the other to position the TR anchor correctly, right? I do that 2 ways, ideally: 1. Use the method with a static line that Don Mellor describes in the Trailside climbing book. Basically you tie one end to a tree, then use the other end to equalize/position the anchor and give it a "tensionless wrap" around another tree, secured with a biner. Pretty neat.
One last point, equalization is good but in the context of the anchors I am talking about it is not that critical that it be perfect.
also consider a fig 8 in place of a overhand
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mtnrsq
Sep 6, 2003, 8:55 PM
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Alpnclimbr is right about the loop v. strands. You are spreading the load across both "sides"/legs of the loop. While this gives you great strength - unless you isolate each side of the loop, you have a single point of failure (tie a loop, load it and cut one side. What happens?) so you need to make sure you are protecting yourself from abrasion/cutting risk.
Watch your fall-line. If you have two anchor points and one side fails - are you going to pendulum on the other side until it reaches the natural fall-line? Is this going to lead to a failure on your remaining anchor point? Think through your anchor set-ups - especially if any part of it will be out of sight some or all of the time.
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ninjaslut
Sep 6, 2003, 9:27 PM
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In reply to: 1) what does "I lash one individual length of webbing around each of the one to three trees" mean? Not one of the posts on this thread was clear about how they anchored to the tree.
Basically, I wrap an end of the single webbing around a healthy, living tree 3 times and hitch or overhand knot the tail around the weighted end of the webbing so it won't unravel.
In reply to: One last point, equalization is good but in the context of the anchors I am talking about it is not that critical that it be perfect. also consider a fig 8 in place of a overhand
Thanks, alpine climber. That entire post was extrodinarily helpful.
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squish
Sep 6, 2003, 9:28 PM
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Everyone's made some good points here, but I'll throw out another option to consider:
Girth hitch your 3 trees with shorter slings, and then equalize from them with a cordelette setup.
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nobody
Sep 6, 2003, 11:36 PM
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This keeps coming up, and it ain't all that hard, folks!
First, it's already been written, but I'll write it again - there ain't nothin wrong with using single strands of webbing. A loop is not any stronger unless each strand is isolated - and there's no need to do that if your anchor is already redundant.
Here's all you have to do:
1. Tie an overhand on a bight on each end of your single strands, and put your 'biners here (no need for a backup knot - just leave more than 3" tail and pull tight).
2. Attatch one opposite end to an anchor point.
3. Clip your rope into 'biners and drop it over the cliff edge.
4. Equalize the other strands to the first one at their respective achor points. This way you're messing around away from the cliff edge. If you're using trees, the tensionless knot is great. If you're using gear, or for whatever reason tying into a 'biner, tie a girth hitch on the 'biner by threading the webbing instead of looping it. This way, it's very easy to tension the strand of webbing just how you want it before finishing off the knot (and it's way easier to tie clean than a clove hitch when using webbing)
5. Climb.
Note - this works very well for the application originally asked about - where anchor points are far from the cliff edge. If they're right on the edge, the cordalette and/or other methods may be better.
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nobody
Sep 7, 2003, 12:17 AM
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(quote) A loop is approximately twice as strong as a single strand of the same material. I can’t believe no one mentioned this as it is one of the most basic tenets in climbing!
No, it's not.
Even if two strands run between 'biners, there is still only one piece of webbing running through the 'biner itself.
Plus, as far as abrasion goes (which is really the most important consideration in this application), if one side of a loop fails, the whole loop fails. And a loop of webbing is not twice as abrasion resistant as a single strand.
To get double the strength, you'd have to tie a knot with two pieces of webbing running through each 'biner. And, each strand would have to be isolated from the other in the loop. You'd essentially be running two single strands of webbing to the same 'biners.
Reconsider your "basic tenet of climbing."
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