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capn_morgan
Oct 21, 2003, 10:01 PM
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To start..I did do a search, just dont feel like digging through all the shoe posts to find the 2 or 3 about ice tools. :P
Now my question for you all is: Why shouldn't I buy a pair of BD Cobras? I can afford them right now..kinda..(you wont die form living entirly off ramen for a whole semester will you? :shock: ) and they seem perfect for what i do/plan on doing. What I want to hear is why I shouldnt buy em'.
Please dont waste your time telling me how great the are. I already know all about that. I am just interested in the people who have had problems with them or have other rational reasons( other than price) that they are not the best. I need a pair of tools that will perform well on hard ice/mixed and also work well in an alpine/plunging situation. So..go at it. tear em apart...
Plese I beg of you..I need a good reason not to spend that much money :roll:
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tradklime
Oct 21, 2003, 10:34 PM
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Have you climbed with them? Not everyone thinks they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. Personally, I prefer many other tools over cobras. As far as massed produced tools, I prefer Grivels. Tool selection is very subjective, try before you buy. If you've climbed with them and love them, then buy them.
Downsides: large grips and the cobra pick is average by today's standards
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darkside
Oct 21, 2003, 10:35 PM
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Just to qualify the value of my input here, I do not and have not owned a pair. I hear many people sing their praises but you asked for negative feedback. The only thing that comes to mind is the leash. I heard the older one could unclip itself but some modification had improved that. Also using the thumb and first finger was awkward to unclip but use of the first finger and middle finger made it easier.
Apparently there was concern for carbon fibre shattering at extemely cold temps but I have never heard of a case of that happening so it is merely heresay.
I own the CM Quark and am happy with it. the BD Cobra is a good tool but whatever tool you buy, the important thing is how it feels in your hand. If the Cobra swings bad for you then look elsewhere. If it feels good then get them.
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cjain
Oct 21, 2003, 11:03 PM
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[quote="darkside"]...The only thing that comes to mind is the leash. quote]
Huh? I don't even think the Cobras usually even come with a leash and you can use pretty much any leash you want on. I use the BD Lockdowns myself...
If you look around, you should be able to find a pair of used Cobras in good condition for somewhere around $375 (at least that seemed to be the going rate earlier this year).
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csoles
Oct 21, 2003, 11:28 PM
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The only real drawback, and it's a major one, is the large size of the grip. Many people find them too pumpy and difficult to control. Less important is the poor finish on the adze but an hour with a file solves that. Still, as someone with large hands, Cobras are my favorite all-around tools. If you have medium hands, try before buying while wearing the warmest gloves you will use. If you have small hands, forget Cobras.
BTW the picks are thinner this year so be sure to buy spares.
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brianinslc
Oct 22, 2003, 12:08 AM
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In reply to: The only real drawback, and it's a major one, is the large size of the grip. Many people find them too pumpy and difficult to control. Less important is the poor finish on the adze but an hour with a file solves that. Still, as someone with large hands, Cobras are my favorite all-around tools. If you have medium hands, try before buying while wearing the warmest gloves you will use. If you have small hands, forget Cobras. BTW the picks are thinner this year so be sure to buy spares.
I, ahem, know a few folk with small hands who like the Cobra.
I think its pretty much a 10cm diameter grip, but, has a asymmetric contour that makes it handle well in a smaller hand. And the weight, and "feel" make it more a precision tool than a heavy handed thunker.
Hands down the best ice tool I've used (swung multiple versions of Grivel, Charlet, etc) . But, you go with what you know.
If they feel right, do it.
Brian in SLC
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kman
Oct 22, 2003, 12:23 AM
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I have the Quarks and they fit my hands quite well. I like how they feel. But yeah... :evil: good luck justifying NOT getting the tools you want. Just go out and buy them already :twisted: Sure...if you don't buy them you will have several hundred dollars to spend on other stuff. But what other stuff could you possibly want :?: Just think of how they will feel swinging through the air and making contact with the ice...ohhhh YEAH :!: If you don't get some tools you will wish you did. SO GET OFF YOUR WALLET AND GO BUY SOME ALREADY. NO MORE EXCUSES :!: :!:
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aussiedean
Oct 22, 2003, 12:44 AM
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Cobras are a good tool and have a high price, I have used a number of BD tools in the past. I persoinally use the Rage. Cobras may break being made of carbon fibre. Save some money and buy something that will last longer and have less chance of breaking.
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rendog
Oct 22, 2003, 3:18 AM
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this is from personal experience:
I've been using the cobras for the last four years. I have the leashes that slide down and have a loop to hook on to the back of the axe to open 'em up.
I abso-freakin-lutely loooooooove these tools. I've used quite a few others from quasars to the old lucky's ( my first pair) and I can't think of any other tool that I would rather use in alpine/waterfall/mixed environment.
The only thing that I don't really like about 'em is that when I get on really easy (WI2) ice they have a tendency to bounce when I swing them. I have no idea why they do but I think it's just one of those things that makes you go hmmmmmmmmmmm. I DON"T use the android leashes 'cause I hate having things flopping around on my hand when I"m trying to place a screw. So i prefer the BD slide leash. It doesn't freeze that bad for a fabric leash and I know it is secure.
I still run the original picks on them after 3 yrs of constant use (read 60+ days a year on ice alone) but of course i have back ups with me always.
spend the bucks and you won't regret it IMHO.
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pico23
Oct 22, 2003, 5:14 AM
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In reply to: Plese I beg of you..I need a good reason not to spend that much money :roll:
I'd say go for them. But consider no tool is gonna make you climb that much better and you will adapt to any tool. Why not buy a lower priced tool and spend some cash on some other stuff? You can get the Rages for a bargain now, the Aztars look nice and are pretty cheap if you shop around, the Grivel Alp Wing is a great tool and less expensive. Well, thats always my route. But I'm still climbing on my 4 year old Omega Venoms that I said were just gonna be for a season. I finally upgraded my foot fangs last season after convincing myself that you can't climb mixed with foot fangs.
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capn_morgan
Oct 22, 2003, 2:42 PM
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thanks guys. luckily I have access to 4 pairs of tools from my schools outing club...so I am not in a rush. They have a 2 pairs of (pulsars)...ugh.. another newer CM set that is nice and some old tools that I really like, have a odd pick that gives them alot of clearance. I am going to try and climb on a pair of cobras this winter. Anyone know someplace that rents em? Fri is EMS club day..20% off everything in the store.. i dont think they have cobras in stock yet though..probably a good thing.
Thanks again
edited...its the pulsars not the axars that i dont like.
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capn_morgan
Oct 22, 2003, 3:43 PM
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after a little research i found that the old tools that my outing lcub have that i really like are the simond pirahnas with a double bend. Does anyone know how i could get ahold of a pair of these tools and how much they might be?
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leec
Oct 22, 2003, 3:59 PM
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I'll second that - I have big hands to and Cobras are about the only tool that I can manage. Standard Quarks are for little girls hands :twisted: and I can't even hold Ergo's gloveless, just simply don't fit. Thank goodness BD brought out the Fusion.
The damping provided by the CF shaft makes a big difference to fatigue on long multi-pitch sustained routes, as well as a appearing to make a cleaner entry into the ice with no shaft vibration to mess with a clean stick.
The 2004 picks are better - but as has been said, a llittle hand work always makes for a happier tool. :lol:
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andypro
Oct 22, 2003, 4:05 PM
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In reply to: after a little research i found that the old tools that my outing lcub have that i really like are the simond pirahnas with a double bend. Does anyone know how i could get ahold of a pair of these tools and how much they might be?
The pirahna
http://www.barrabes.com/barrabes/product.asp?dept_id=93&pf_id=831&opt=
And the pirahna evolution
http://www.barrabes.com/barrabes/product.asp?dept_id=93&pf_id=7368&opt=
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pico23
Oct 22, 2003, 10:17 PM
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simond makes good tools and I think the pirahnas (sp??) are still made. I believe a person I climb with uses the pirahnas. Do a search for them and I'm sure you'll come up with something.
I've never liked the Pulsar either. I'm looking at getting a pair of Axars alp wings this year. The axar can be had for cheapo and I've always liked the way they swing. Plus picks are cheap and easy to find. If I can't get a deal on them then I'll definitely go with the Grivel Alp Wing. Nice tool, inexpensive and designed for the type of climbing I enjoy.
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rockprodigy
Oct 23, 2003, 3:22 AM
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I posted this in the other thread as well, but you can remove the rubber grip on the cobras to make the grip feel better if you have small hands.
I can't imagine going with anything else for an "all-around" tool.
The reason not to get them would be if you think you'll really get into "sport" mixed climbing, in which case, you'll want a super-dooper leashless tool, not cobras.
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rockprodigy
Oct 23, 2003, 3:23 AM
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I posted this in the other thread as well, but you can remove the rubber grip on the cobras to make the grip feel better if you have small hands.
I can't imagine going with anything else for an "all-around" tool.
The reason not to get them would be if you think you'll really get into "sport" mixed climbing, in which case, you'll want a super-dooper leashless tool, not cobras.
Those of you who keep mentioning they might break are smoking crack. If they ever do break, BD has very good warranty service.
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tradklime
Oct 24, 2003, 8:47 PM
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In reply to: Those of you who keep mentioning they might break are smoking crack. If they ever do break, BD has very good warranty service.
Won't help much if you are on a route... but I've never heard of the issue with cobras. I believe the first generation CF Black Profits had some issues at the joint between the metal and CF on the shaft, but that was resolved quickly. In my mind, the only real issue is if you banged the shaft hard on a rock.
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andypro
Oct 24, 2003, 10:33 PM
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In reply to: Won't help much if you are on a route... but I've never heard of the issue with cobras. I believe the first generation CF Black Profits had some issues at the joint between the metal and CF on the shaft, but that was resolved quickly. In my mind, the only real issue is if you banged the shaft hard on a rock.
You really ahve to fark up to break carbon fiber. However..and this is a big however...depnding on the construction, if you scratch the surface enough to break the top layer of CF, the whole thing loses about 80% of it's strength.
I say depending on consturction because CF is only strongest in it's direction of fill. That means if they used all vertical strands, and only had the horizontal srands to hold the fibers together while constructing it, it will have incredible strength along the long axis of the handle, and not much along the cross axis. If the did it the other way, it would be reversed.
where the scratching comes in is if you use a " chop filler" type of core. Then all the strength is in the surfaces, and the filler is for torsional rigidity.
Neither of these methods alone would lend well to an ice tool shaft. My guess is tha there is a nearly equal distribution in long axis and cross axis. In this case, you would ahve to do serious damage to the shaft in order for it to break. And lets not forget the inherent strength of the tube design and that too will make it much stronger than if it were square or had flat sides.
Basically, I highly odubt your going to break a CF shaft. Especially with BD having made so many series of tools utilizing a CF shaft, I'd think they know what they're doing. To worry about it would be plain ole silly.
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punk
Oct 25, 2003, 12:59 AM
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What endypro trying to say is, don’t waste your money and time Just get the Rages…the most durable tool out there that climb better then most and dose everything Superbly great. after owning it for the third season (about 150 days of water ice and 30 Alpine ice) the only thing I can say is Rages are DA BOMB if u cant climb something it is not the tools fault and those will make EVERYTHING so much easier
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andypro
Oct 25, 2003, 1:21 AM
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In reply to: What endypro trying to say is, don’t waste your money and time Just get the Rages
Heh..uhm..not exactly. What I was doing was giving a confusing technical reason why people shouldn't be worrying about breaking a BD CF tool. Basically, it aint gonna happen unless you seriously do something wrong.
I agree with the dont waste your money though. I'm perfectly happy with Trango Captain Hooks. Hell of alot cheaper than Cobras, and They're surely not going to limit MY climbing anytime soon.
One thing I ntoice on this site is that people think if it says Black Diamond on it, it's the best. There are tons of companies out there making very excelent gear for alot less than BD does. Just because it happened to be the tool so and so won a world cup event with doens't mean ti's the best in the world. Had that person used Omega Bulldogs and won, you woudn't see all this stuff going on. Everyone would be buying bulldogs.
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pico23
Oct 25, 2003, 4:52 AM
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In reply to: One thing I ntoice on this site is that people think if it says Black Diamond on it, it's the best. There are tons of companies out there making very excelent gear for alot less than BD does. Just because it happened to be the tool so and so won a world cup event with doens't mean ti's the best in the world. Had that person used Omega Bulldogs and won, you woudn't see all this stuff going on. Everyone would be buying bulldogs.
Amen brother.
Good series of post by Andypro about the CF shaft construction and marketing. For my money I still think a tool like the CM Axar/Aztar, Alp Wing or the Rage are the way to go. Good all around tools with plenty of clearance for mostly anything. Seems to me the drawback of the more specialized tools is the fact that they are specialized.
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punk
Oct 26, 2003, 10:16 AM
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In reply to: One thing I ntoice on this site is that people think if it says Black Diamond on it, it's the best.
Well, Im defiantly NOT BD buff. I don’t specifically like BD but if u asking me they deserve the credit for something’s that they do better then any other company ….my philosophy is there is no one best company there are preferred/loved /proven/better product by various companies and the Rage is one of them. this is not to say that Grivel, CM, Simond, Trango, Smiley’s etc are not good…all I’m saying that is I found that those are tested and truth personally. I own 4 sets of tools Grivel, CM, Simond and BD they all shine in different medium but the BD is the do it all tool
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fear
Oct 26, 2003, 1:48 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: What endypro trying to say is, don’t waste your money and time Just get the Rages . . . Had that person used Omega Bulldogs and won, you woudn't see all this stuff going on. Everyone would be buying bulldogs.
I LOVE my bulldogs. Great tools for $99. Very strong and light tools.
That being said, I still prefer my Pulsars or Quarks on any WI3+ or higher.....
-Fear
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tradklime
Oct 26, 2003, 2:58 PM
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In reply to: Basically, I highly odubt your going to break a CF shaft. Especially with BD having made so many series of tools utilizing a CF shaft, I'd think they know what they're doing. To worry about it would be plain ole silly.
I certainly agree with that.
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