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flamer
Nov 15, 2003, 3:42 PM
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Anyone who's ever hauled on a wall knows that getting the Haul bag(s) on and off the anchor can be tough.
Alot of folks use a munter hitch and a load release knot. While this system works well, I use a method that is simpler and just as effective.
It's quite simple really. After discovering the wonderful world of Adjustable Daisy Chains (ADC's), I thought why not use one on My Pig??
So Here's how it works. Attach your ADC to the longer of the 2 haul straps on your bag. When the bag arrives at the anchor clip the buckle side to the anchor, As high as possible. Now pull the slack out of the ADC, Next grab the pig with one hand and lift, you'll be pulling on the loose end of the ADC.
The weight of the bag is now off the hauler and on the anchor.
Now reset the hauler for the next pitch.
When the leader is ready to haul the next pitch, they pull the slack out of the haul line (taking some of the weight of the bag) all you have to do to unload the anchor is push the magic button on the ADC. Boom! The anchor is unweighted and off goes Piggy.
You can incorporate a lower out line for long traverse's and big air.
I don't think The metolious style ADC's will work as well as the Yates jobs.
This system is simple and streamlined, you should try it!
HAVE FUN!
josh
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lazide
Nov 15, 2003, 4:26 PM
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This method also won't work with heavy pigs. Yates won't release under the expected 300-400 lbs (go ahead, give it a try), and neither will the metolius.
The adjustable daisy chains also aren't particularly strong - if you use it as part of a solo belay system, you could very well break the daisy, which would definitly not be a good thing.
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flamer
Nov 15, 2003, 4:46 PM
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In reply to: This method also won't work with heavy pigs. Yates won't release under the expected 300-400 lbs (go ahead, give it a try), and neither will the metolius. The adjustable daisy chains also aren't particularly strong - if you use it as part of a solo belay system, you could very well break the daisy, which would definitly not be a good thing.
You're right Using it for Extremely heavy loads is not a very good Idea.
Personally I NEVER want to climb a wall where I'm hauling 3 or 4 hundred pounds.
When you talk about using it as part of a solo belay system I'm assuming you mean tying the bag into the system to add more of a dynamic "catch" if you fall?
And in that case I wouldn't recommend the ADC as your only means of attaching the bag to the anchor. Of course I wouldn't recommend using just a load release knot either...
josh
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lambone
Nov 15, 2003, 4:52 PM
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In reply to: Next grab the pig with one hand and lift... ...push the magic button on the ADC. Boom! josh
two fundemental reasons why the load release knot is better.
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passthepitonspete
Nov 15, 2003, 5:42 PM
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There is no doubt about it - while this method will only work with buckle-style adjustable daisies [like] and will not work with D-ring style [like] - flamer's way is undoubtedly the Easy Way. At least in theory it is - there are in fact rare and special circumstances that occasionally really do happen on the wall, and where it might actually work.
It is also the Expensive Way. Not that an extra seventeen bucks [even Merrican bucks] isn't that much to spend [hell, your swivel costs way more than that], it still costs you more than a ten-foot hunk of 7mm cord. But for those of us who do not enjoy the luxury of obtaining free gear [as though it miraculously dropped on us from the very heavens above] the Better Way may also be the Cheaper Way. And Dr. Piton is the cheapest bugger you'll ever find!
My friend lambone above is now a Full-Fledged Expert in the Field of 2:1 Physics. In fact, I quote him:
In reply to: "]"Pulling in on an adjustable daisy chain DOES give you a 2:1 mechanical advantage. And anyone who says it doesn't, clearly doesn't understand mechanical advantage."
above wrote: At any rate, besides the "boom" bit [i.e. overly quick release], there is another fundamental reason why using an adjustable daisy as a pig releasing tether will not work in many situations. But before I tell you where it won't work, I need to first tell you first where it will. Where this system works is on plumb-vertical pitches, where the hauling station is directly above the pig. The pig is lifted [or if soloing, the haul line is tightened], and the adjustable daisy can be released. Voila. But then again, if this were the case, and you have a partner, you could have clipped the pig in with a crab, and had your parter lift it, right? But in most situations - especially aid climbing! - the pitch is far from plumb, and will both traverse and overhang. What this means is that the pig will release on an angle from the lower station. So think about this - imagine the haul line being tightened, and the pig being lifted on either its docking tether or its adjustable daisy. It has not yet been released. Note how the angle of its tether is on a diagonal. [Work with me on this, K? Viz-you-ul-eyes..... ] So now, it's time to release the pig. Because the hauling station is not directly above the pig, there are forces on both the tether/adjustable daisy, and on the haul line. If the pitch is vertical, there is no weight on the tether, it's all on the haul line. But the overhanging-er and traversing-er the pitch is, the more weight is on the tether. And if you have ever untied a docking tether in this situation, you will know how much tension is still in it! With the docking tether, this is no problem. You have butterflied the pig into the haul line, and your excess haul line is your lower-out line. You have run the free end of the haul line through a munter hitch on the anchor, or perhaps through a crab on the anchor, and back to your Grigri. In either case you must use a locker - otherwise you may have a wildly swinging pig! So it's easy - you untie the docking tether, and away she goes. Pigs in Space! And here is the fundamental difference - the docking tether is nothing but a cord. It has been docked to a transient locker on your power point. When it's released, the free ends of the cord simply slip through the locker like a snake gliding through the grass. With the adjustable daisy on the other hand, you can lower the pig out five feet, but then what? Imagine the pig now hanging in space five feet out diagonally from the anchor. Half of the pig's weight is on the haul line, the other half of the pig's weight is on the adjustable daisy. Frantic voice of Karl Malden in the old American Express commercial: "So what do you do? What do you do?!" If you are a burly muscle man with bulging biceps hauling a girly-man-sized pig, you can lift the pig with one hand and unclip the adjustable daisy from the anchor. But what if you are a girly-man sized climber with weiner arms hauling a muscle man-sized pig? [Hey! What the ...... who said that?!] It beats the heck out of the Doc. That's why he uses a docking tether. So the next time you are driving along the highway, and you see lambone hanging out in the middle of an open area, you can say, "Now there's a man out standing in his field." Cheers, The Doc
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flamer
Nov 15, 2003, 9:20 PM
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Ok To clarify, because I didn't want to make a marathon out of the original post.
This is not theory- it has worked Extremely well for me and other folks even on traversing pitch's. And I'll explain WHERE AND WHY it did.
If you have a traversing or very overhanging pitch you are going to use a lower out line, RIGHT?
Whether you are using the butterfly and the "tail" to accomplish this or an Independent lower out line does not matter.
You simply tie the lower out line thru a locker(on the anchor) using a Munter hitch, then back to your Grigri(or whatever you use), Then pull that tight, then push The "magic button" on the ADC. The bag comes off the anchor and is now weighting the lower out line and the haul line. You then lower the bag out Ala' PTPP's explaination....simple and efficient.
As far as being expensive well, whatever I had an extra. But if you don't have an extra or can't afford it...THEN DON"T USE IT!! :roll:
Where you might ask did I use this system, what pitch could have been that traversing??
LURKING FEAR
The Grand traverse pitch comes to mind....as do several other pitch's on that route...and it worked like a dream.
You guys should at least try it before you write it off as "JUST THEORY".
You have tried it right Pete?
josh
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flamer
Nov 15, 2003, 9:25 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Next grab the pig with one hand and lift... ...push the magic button on the ADC. Boom! josh two fundemental reasons why the load release knot is better.
Ok, The thing is you don't actually pull the weight of the bag...the daisy does most of the work, similiar to how they can work as a 2:1 while climbing.
If you don't want to lift AT ALL, try clipping an aider to the "pull ring" on the ADC and standing on it.....VOILA!! No arm muscle's at all!!!
OK the BOOM!! Part was added for effect...like to make it more fun??
It doesn't really shock load or anything you can let it out just a slowly as you want.
Lambone, I know you have a copule of these puppies laying around since you said you tried them and didn't like them....SO!! Why don't you TRY IT!!!
And oh yeah...
HAVE FUN!!!
josh
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flamer
Nov 15, 2003, 9:38 PM
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HAHA!! I'm an idiot!! I just noticed that I originally titled this thread...Easy way to REAL in that pig.....It should have said REEL...
I fixed it...carry on...
josh
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bspisak
Nov 15, 2003, 11:09 PM
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I'd be worried about BOOM as in, "Ooops, I released the pig by accident becuase something squished the daisy release buckle at my cluster-f*cked belay and now the pig is free-wheeling through space and there goes all the static haul line BOOM it just hit the anchor, the anchor blows, I'm dead."
Food for thought. I like having my pig secure to the anchor. If you prefer the ADC, back-it up!
Brian
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flamer
Nov 15, 2003, 11:22 PM
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In reply to: I'd be worried about BOOM as in, "Ooops, I released the pig by accident becuase something squished the daisy release buckle at my cluster-f*cked belay and now the pig is free-wheeling through space and there goes all the static haul line BOOM it just hit the anchor, the anchor blows, I'm dead." Food for thought. I like having my pig secure to the anchor. If you prefer the ADC, back-it up! Brian
Yes I could see this being a problem. IF ;
#1 you hit the button
#2 you held it long enough for the daisy to fully extend
#3 it shock loaded hard enough (after a 4 ft slide) to break the daisy
#4 you didn't back it up! (like I just ASSUMED you would)
There is a certain VERY VOCAL member of this site who could tell you what happens when you don't back it up and use a load release knot, then (at said Clu$ter f**k belay) accidentally untie the load release knot.
I'm not trying to be insulting Brian! I honestly just assume that backing things up is fundmental enough that I don't even have to mention it.
Of course this is the WWW and maybe I should assume nothing!
Do you like how I stole a trick from The post master and put stuff in bold??
WEEE this is fun!!!
josh
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bspisak
Nov 16, 2003, 12:37 AM
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Hey man, no insult was given, none taken. Sometimes our little web critiques come out harsher than they would if we were just chatting. These forums aren't the best form of human communication ever devised, eh?
Brian
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bspisak
Nov 16, 2003, 12:39 AM
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p.s. I did read that vocal member's post about the flying pig. Yowza! :shock:
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bigwalling
Nov 16, 2003, 12:56 AM
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Oh that would suck if the bag ripped you off the wall! Of course that would mean you already had the bag clipped to the haul line, which isn't usually the case.
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flamer
Nov 16, 2003, 1:18 AM
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In reply to: These forums aren't the best form of human communication ever devised, eh? Brian
You can say that again!
josh
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lambone
Nov 16, 2003, 3:56 AM
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In reply to: Oh that would suck if the bag ripped you off the wall! Of course that would mean you already had the bag clipped to the haul line, which isn't usually the case.
Huh?
Dood read Pete's story about how he dropped the haul bag. Seems to me that the fundemantal mistake was that the bag was not clipped to the haul line. Allways leave the back tied to the haul line, if you untie it, re-tie it before you do anything else. And back it up and all that.
Droppin the pig islike dropping the rack...you just don't. The least that could happen is that you loose all your stuff and are fucked, the worst that could happen is that you Kill some poor touron day hiking under tha Captain...or your partner.
But I suppose I'm just stating the obvious now...sorry.
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passthepitonspete
Nov 16, 2003, 4:28 AM
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In reply to: "You simply tie the lower out line thru a locker(on the anchor) using a Munter hitch, then back to your Grigri(or whatever you use), Then pull that tight, then push The "magic button" on the ADC. The bag comes off the anchor and is now weighting the lower out line and the haul line. You then lower the bag out Ala' PTPP's explaination....simple and efficient.
{Dr. Piton looks around nervously, and pulls his collar away from his neck, sweating visibly}
Er, um, uh ..... like, I never thought of that ......
In reply to: "There is a certain VERY VOCAL member of this site who could tell you what happens when you don't back it up and use a load release knot, then (at said Clu$ter f**k belay) accidentally untie the load release knot.
There are times when Dr. Piton's credibility is untarnished. But there are also times when his credibility is - shall we say - perhaps a bit suspect? And the Doc talking about how to secure a pig to the anchor so you don't drop it is probably one of those times.
{Dr. Piton steps back from the campfire, his tail between his legs, and hopes that nobody notices how red from embarrassment his face is}
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flamer
Nov 16, 2003, 5:32 AM
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WOW.
This maybe the first time I've actually seen Pete be....well HUMBLE??
I'm impressed.
josh
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flamer
Nov 17, 2003, 2:37 AM
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So now I want to hear what people think....or if someone has question's??
I would like some feed back from anyone who gives this a try....
Hmmm....what if YATES of another haul bag manufacture where to incorporate this directly into the haul bag?? It might need to be tweaked alittle for that to work but an idea none the less....
Why not MAKE THE HAUL BAG IT"S SELF MORE USER FRIENDLY??
just brain storming....thoughts???
josh
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malabarista
Nov 17, 2003, 4:06 AM
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I've been using a 3-1, then tying it off in a similar way to the tie off method with the load release knot. Then I back it up by tying in the haul line to the anchor with a clove hitch. It's super easy to lift the pig with the 3-1 and there is enough slack after letting out the 3-1 to have 15-20 ft of lower out line.
When I was on the Zodiac last month, one of the Hubers dropped their haul bag. It plummeted the full length of their haul line (must have been secured to an anchor at the very end). It sounded like a missle whizzing by and we were sure all hell was going to break loose, but then it stopped, miraculousy not ripping out all the stitching -about 30 feet above my partner's head. The next day we saw Thomas and he said "I'm soooooo sorry about the haul bag. I thought I would die!".
:lol:
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passthepitonspete
Nov 17, 2003, 4:14 AM
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We salesmen have a term called the "porcupine close" whereby you take the porcupine, throw it against the wall, and see if it sticks.
So I'm asking you, flamer, have you used and tried the regular Docking Tether method? If so, have you used it very much? Have you used both methods enough to say with certainty that you personally prefer the adjustable daisy?
I'm just curious. I won't condemn you if you haven't. If you have, I'd like you to outline the reasons why you believe docking your pig on an ADC is better than using the Docking Tether method. And if you haven't really used the Docking Tether enough to say with certainty, then fair enough - we'll just have to leave it up to the masses to decide.
Personally, I'm just afraid that I would somehow end up with my pig hanging from the end of the thing without enough slack to release it. Cuz if there's a way to blow it, I can probably find it!
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epic_ed
Nov 17, 2003, 4:23 AM
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Excellent exchange of ideas, guys.
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lambone
Nov 17, 2003, 5:15 AM
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In reply to: Personally, I'm just afraid that I would somehow end up with my pig hanging from the end of the thing without enough slack to release it. Cuz if there's a way to blow it, I can probably find it!
On a traversing pitch...or every other pitch on the east side of el cap...it definately would be a problem. you could set up a lower out line on a munter to take the weight...but then why add extra steps, just use the dockin line in the first place...
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flamer
Nov 17, 2003, 5:31 AM
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In reply to: On a traversing pitch...or every other pitch on the east side of el cap...it definately would be a problem. you could set up a lower out line on a munter to take the weight...but then why add extra steps, just use the dockin line in the first place...
Um Lambone? Did you read the whole thing?
You don't add any steps...IN FACT You actually reduce step's!
I've yet to see it get to the end of the ADC , before the weight was taken by either the haul or lower out line.
I don't think you are thinking about it before you just write it off.
josh
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flamer
Nov 17, 2003, 5:46 AM
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In reply to: So I'm asking you, flamer, have you used and tried the regular Docking Tether method? If so, have you used it very much? Have you used both methods enough to say with certainty that you personally prefer the adjustable daisy?
A very valid question!!
Yes I have used the docking tether, but not enough to truly make a choice between the two.
And here is the thing, I'm not trying to say that the ADC method is the best in all situations.
In fact I would probably not recommend it for situation's where you have very large loads. Like for example, the amount of stuff you'd need for 2 weeks on a wall. In those situations I personally would use the docking tether and load release knot.(backed up of course!!!)
However!! I'm a light is right kind'a guy. Do things faster and carry less stuff. So for a wall like Lurking Fear or Zodiac where I personally would only haul one bag(and put the Portaledge in it!!) The ADC works very well.
Don't get me wrong here fella's I'm not saying this method is the only way. OR!! THE "BETTER WAY"!!!
What I'm saying is it's a good trick to add to your Quiver! Wanna do a wall like the Prow? Perfect!!
Headed up Reticent?? Might want to use the docking tether on that one...
The more you know the better...
josh
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lambone
Nov 17, 2003, 5:30 PM
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In reply to: I'm a light is right kind'a guy. Do things faster and carry less stuff. josh
Nice, which is why I don't understand why you would want to cary a heavy Yates adjustable daisy and a lower out line...when you can easily dock the haul bag to the anchor WITH the lower out line? It is not like the munter-mule knot is difficult to tie, plus the paractice may come in handy if you need to use it in a self rescue situation someday.
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