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dingus
Jan 28, 2004, 2:46 AM
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In reply to: Dingus, I will also concede that sport climbing will help make you stronger. So will climbing in the gym, pilates, pullups, campus boards etc. That doesn't mean that I would make the claim that all these things are symbiotic compliments to Trad climbing. I see them as merely various means of training for climbing. Curt
Salt, lime and tequila compliment each other quite well. I don't make the mistake of equating these things however.
Sport and trad do compliment for many of us, in many ways. You said, "you couldn't be more wrong" when the original poster made the suggestion. And almost no one here agrees with you. So who "couldn't be more wrong?"
DMT
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goldencrowbar
Jan 28, 2004, 2:47 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: It's about time. This thread needs a good hijacking. Well, did you ever try Groovin' in B Major? yeah, but I suck at water grooves man. I'm pathetic at those things. Give me face or give me death, which is wheat woud happen if I had to free solo a 100 foot water groove, unless it wsa one of thoes big grooves, like the ones up on sagee, where you cana grab those bits of quartz on the edges and scoot.
Speaking of Sagee, I've been thinking about taking my soloist and toproping all that stuff on the righthand side of the cliff. Jeff and I was studying it a while back and found that it was totally gearless.
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curt
Jan 28, 2004, 2:49 AM
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Bob,
In reply to: I think you just don't like bolts or sport-climbers. That personal and that ok.
I do not hate sport climbers or sport climbing. I even go sport climbing once in a while--and when I do, I have fun. Climbing in a gym can be fun too. I have never once posted that sport climbing can't be fun. That is not my point.
My point, which may have been lost, is more this. If you ask me if I admire those climbers who have advanced the standards of climbing difficulty beyond, say Wunsch, Bachar, etal by trading off difficulty for ethics--I would clearly say NO. That's all.
Curt
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curt
Jan 28, 2004, 2:55 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Dingus, I will also concede that sport climbing will help make you stronger. So will climbing in the gym, pilates, pullups, campus boards etc. That doesn't mean that I would make the claim that all these things are symbiotic compliments to Trad climbing. I see them as merely various means of training for climbing. Curt Salt, lime and tequila compliment each other quite well. I don't make the mistake of equating these things however. Sport and trad do compliment for many of us, in many ways. You said, "you couldn't be more wrong" when the original poster made the suggestion. And almost no one here agrees with you. So who "couldn't be more wrong?" DMT
Sure Dingus, everybody knows that if you are in the majority, you are always right.
Curt
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timstich
Jan 28, 2004, 3:01 AM
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In reply to: ... Adolph Hitler - Ethical Treatment of Minorities I hope you find these useful. :wink: Curt
You mentioned Hitler, so according to the established Internet Ethics handed down by our forefathers (Godwin's Law) I declare you the F-ING LOSER!
Although, privately, I am nodding my head with what you said.
But you blew it.
Don't do it AGAIN.
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fracture
Jan 28, 2004, 3:06 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: ... Adolph Hitler - Ethical Treatment of Minorities I hope you find these useful. :wink: Curt You mentioned Hitler, so according to the established Internet Ethics handed down by our forefathers (Godwin's Law) I declare you the F-ING LOSER!
I almost brought this up.
But then it occured to me: Godwin's Law doesn't apply to http-based message boards. The golden age of the internet is gone. Gone the way of the dodo and the golden age of rock climbing, when everyone was trad, and chuffed noisily about their latest, sick 5.7 ascent, upon which they aided past the crux. *sigh* :( :cry:
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curt
Jan 28, 2004, 3:14 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: ... Adolph Hitler - Ethical Treatment of Minorities I hope you find these useful. :wink: Curt You mentioned Hitler, so according to the established Internet Ethics handed down by our forefathers (Godwin's Law) I declare you the F-ING LOSER! Although, privately, I am nodding my head with what you said. But you blew it. Don't do it AGAIN.
Well, I have never heard of "Godwin's Law" and being a WWII history buff, I invoke Churchill, Roosevelt, Chamberlain and others of that era on a somewhat regular basis. Also, after invoking Albert DeSalvo and Ken Lay, I thought I needed bigger names to drive my point home. Hence the use of AH and Bill Clinton. You should have quoted the entire thing.
Curt
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fracture
Jan 28, 2004, 3:27 AM
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In reply to: Well, I have never heard of "Godwin's Law"
Well, welcome to the internet, and please stfu n00b.
Godwin in the Jargon File.
:D
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curt
Jan 28, 2004, 3:33 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Well, I have never heard of "Godwin's Law" Well, welcome to the internet, and please stfu n00b. Godwin in the Jargon File. :D
Hey, thanks--I read about it. And I do understand the rest of your post. So, as far as climbing goes -
stfu n00b :lol:
Curt
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bobd1953
Jan 28, 2004, 3:37 AM
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In reply to: My point, which may have been lost, is more this. If you ask me if I admire those climbers who have advanced the standards of climbing difficulty beyond, say Wunsch, Bachar, etal by trading off difficulty for ethics--I would clearly say NO. That's all.
That was not the intention of the first post. It, I believe was just asking if sport and trad-climbing are somewhat useful to one another.
The first ascent of "Supercrack" in the "Gunks" was at the time considered bad style and bad ethics by some. Numerous falls, gear left in placed...
Bachar's use of hook's for bolting was considered by some bad style and bad ethics.
Gill's use of chalk was considered by some to be bad style and ethics.
Fire's rock shoes were at the time considered cheating and bad style to some.
Do you see where I am going with this.
As to Amber, I think with your background you bring a little more to the table. See has a right to her opinions and the right to post on this site. I also have the right to call on her what I think is a very negative and shallow statement.
I refuse to get into any name-calling or other bull-shit that seems to happens when someone disagrees with another person on this site.
I respect you and your opinions and the right to voice them. Let's go bouldering, san...pads
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dingus
Jan 28, 2004, 3:50 AM
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In reply to: My point, which may have been lost, is more this. If you ask me if I admire those climbers who have advanced the standards of climbing difficulty beyond, say Wunsch, Bachar, etal by trading off difficulty for ethics--I would clearly say NO. That's all. Curt
Huh??? What has this to do with the thread?
DMT
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bobd1953
Jan 28, 2004, 3:50 AM
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In reply to: This is a discussion about ethics--or at least my objection related to sport and trad climbing being complimentary is framed in a context of ethics.
Curt, look at the first post. You made this a discussion on ethics.
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dingus
Jan 28, 2004, 3:52 AM
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In reply to: Sure Dingus, everybody knows that if you are in the majority, you are always right. Curt
That's it Curt? That's your rebuttal? Trad and sport climbing do not compliment one another because if you are in the majority you are always right?
I'm afraid I don't quite follow you.
DMT
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dingus
Jan 28, 2004, 3:56 AM
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In reply to: I almost brought this up. But then it occured to me: Godwin's Law doesn't apply to http-based message boards.
Yes, how can you be a fucking loser when you can't even use the fucking word?
I declare Godwin's Law is now moot. We now have "Mommy Law" instead.
Nurture...
DMT
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keazah
Jan 28, 2004, 4:04 AM
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I really don't get all the fuss... I like rock climbing and anything related to it (with the exception of injuries) so why can't we just climb for fun!?!?!?!
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dwise
Jan 28, 2004, 4:08 AM
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6 pages! Good thread Eman. Any use of the words sport and trad in the same sentence is guaranteed to launch the mother of all name-calling battles. I must admit that I'm a bit surprised that the sport v trad war is still so hot. I thought it died down years ago.
Where's the love? It's all climbing, just get out and climb whatever makes you happy! :D
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bobd1953
Jan 28, 2004, 4:12 AM
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In reply to: You need to go back to what I consider to be the golden age of rock climbing, which came to a close in the late 1970s, just when I was being introduced to the sport. Up until that time, advancements in climbing difficulty were accompanied by parallel advancements in climbing ethics. Guys like John Stannard, Steve Wunsch, Royal Robbins, John Bachar and others had advanced the standards of climbing difficulty while at the same time promoting purer ethics.
Hey Curt, me again. I was there and it's not all that you make it out to be. All the folks you mention in the above statement, somewhere along the line, did things different and out of line with what considered pure and ethical at the time. And I am glad they did it!
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curt
Jan 28, 2004, 4:15 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Sure Dingus, everybody knows that if you are in the majority, you are always right. Curt That's it Curt? That's your rebuttal? Trad and sport climbing do not compliment one another because if you are in the majority you are always right? I'm afraid I don't quite follow you. DMT
Ok. I'll dumb it down so you can understand it. YOU said to me:
In reply to: And almost no one here agrees with you. So who "couldn't be more wrong?"
In reply to: Sure Dingus, everybody knows that if you are in the majority, you are always right.
Curt
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curt
Jan 28, 2004, 4:21 AM
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Bob,
In reply to: I respect you and your opinions and the right to voice them. Let's go bouldering, san...pads
Curt
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roughster
Jan 28, 2004, 4:24 AM
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In reply to: Bob, In reply to: I respect you and your opinions and the right to voice them. Let's go bouldering, san...pads OK, sounds good to me. I can do without the bouldering pads well enough. I may insist on the traditional carpet square to clean my shoes on though--if that's OK? :lol: Curt
Actaully these also caused quite a ruckus when 1st being used. Ask Verm about his hunting caprpet squares article.
Curt wheres the ethics man? :lol: :shock:
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curt
Jan 28, 2004, 4:28 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Bob, In reply to: I respect you and your opinions and the right to voice them. Let's go bouldering, san...pads OK, sounds good to me. I can do without the bouldering pads well enough. I may insist on the traditional carpet square to clean my shoes on though--if that's OK? :lol: Curt Actaully these also caused quite a ruckus when 1st being used. Ask Verm about his hunting caprpet squares article. Curt wheres the ethics man? :lol: :shock:
Hey kid,
Ask Verm? Haha. I have hunted all varieties of carpet squares with Verm in countless exotic locations. I've bagged a few beauts myself, the finest of which are stuffed and mounted on the wall of my den. :wink:
Curt
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dirtineye
Jan 28, 2004, 4:29 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I almost brought this up. But then it occured to me: Godwin's Law doesn't apply to http-based message boards. Yes, how can you be a f---ing loser when you can't even use the f---ing word? I declare Godwin's Law is now moot. We now have "Mommy Law" instead. Nurture... DMT
that is great. I love it.... Finally a useful result from this debate.
Where can I sign up for Mommy law?
I'm particularly interested in the mommy law of gravity , which surely is muhc kinder that the mean old newton's law of gravity. Hic.
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bobd1953
Jan 28, 2004, 4:30 AM
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In reply to: OK, sounds good to me. I can do without the bouldering pads well enough. I may insist on the traditional carpet square to clean my shoes on though--if that's OK?
Is that proper ethics?? Just joking!
I think bouldering should be pure and simple, less gear the better. That's an opinion and has nothing to do with style or ethics.
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mother
Jan 28, 2004, 4:50 AM
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for the truly open-minded climber all types of climbing (trad, sport, bouldering, soloing, ice climbing, mixed climbing, dirt climbing, buildering, 4th-class exposed scrambling, etc.) will provide many learning opportunities that will allow one to progress in any single discipline to an extent greater than that if one focused on that discipline alone. i feel silly stating the obvious but it appears that so many people are either "trad climbers", "sport climbers", "ice climbers", etc. they miss the obvious benefits of different climbing experiences.
w/ respect to sport complementing trad i can only speak from personal experience but i would suggest that this is possible. however, this probably depends on the individual - their strenghts and weaknesses w/ respect to continued improvement in their chosen discipline. i started basic trad climbing years ago teaching myself how to climb using Robbin's "Basic Rockcraft" and "Advanced Rockcraft" manuals, some webbing for a harness, a figure 8 for rappelling/belaying, a few locking biners, a set of chouinard hexes and stoppers and a dynamic rope. I trad climbed for several years w/ some improvement but saw a more rapid improvement when i started to do some sport climbing in addition to trad climbing. For me, both disciplines had something to offer. Trad climbing taught me commitment and composure on lead, the responsibility and confidence of placing your own gear, and the freedom that comes with protecting a line using only natural features of the rock. On the other hand, sport taught me about efficiency and pacing of movement, gave me greater strength and endurance, and it provided me w/ a truer understanding of my physical limits.
Now, i mostly sport climb because i hate hauling all the gear that comes w/ trad climbing and i enjoy the unincumbered freedom of movement that one finds w/ sport climbing. Oh, and i also boulder and do some ice climbing (less now). Does this then make me a "sport climber"? Has this new focus erroded my values and aesthetics? I'll let someone else decide that. I do what makes me happy now. What i do next year or in 10 years will be what is right for me at that time.
Finally, i still find it funny when my "large-testicled, real-climbing, manly" trad friends finally talk me into giving up a sport weekend to join them trad climbing. The climbing and company is always good but what is better is seeing them trying to make sense of this "sport-climbing p*ssy" who sends trad lines they could only hope to someday experience.
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robmcc
Jan 28, 2004, 5:01 AM
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In reply to: It would depend upon how much beans, onions, garlic and cheap beer the trad guy consumed just prior to brawl.
Real climbers don't clip bolts OR drink cheap beer.
Rob
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Re: Sport and Trad Compliment one another
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