How so?

Real climbing (trad) and sport climbing are at odds with one another on a fundamental philosophical basis. One must go back in the history of climbing to appreciate how different these divergent aspects of climbing really are.

You need to go back to what I consider to be the golden age of rock climbing, which came to a close in the late 1970s, just when I was being introduced to the sport. Up until that time, advancements in climbing difficulty were accompanied by parallel advancements in climbing ethics. Guys like John Stannard, Steve Wunsch, Royal Robbins, John Bachar and others had advanced the standards of climbing difficulty while at the same time promoting purer ethics.

All advancements in pure climbing difficulty that came after this generation occurred as the direct result of trading off this advance in difficulty by sacrificing ethical standards. You may be for this trend--or you may be against it, but this is a fact.

Curt

Sorry Curt, but that's some serious Stone Age logic.
A century and some change ago, armies stood online 50 yds apart shooting muskets at one another. It wasn't unusual for armies to suffer tens of thousands of casualties in a single day. Fortunately, no one's laying around reminiscing about 'the good ole days' and belittling these young whipper snappers with their new fangled machine guns, kevlar body armor, tanks and camouflage. Amazingly enough, we still study the older forms of warfare and apply lessons learned because tactics are tactics and there remains common threads. Climbing is no different.
True, there are many differences between trad and sport, but they share the same 'golden era' roots and fundamentals. The 'old school' ethics are great, but the sport has evolved into many forms. 'True' climbers sample all the various disciplines, find their own definition of climbing, and pursue whatever makes them happy.
Regardless of which type of climbing you prefer, participating in one only makes you stronger in the other.

kalcario...

dean potter and leo houlding are two folks that will NOT make your list, and for the reasons that curt stated, I have a lot more respect for them.

Thank you kalcario, I knew someone else would know what's going on.

dammit. curt beat me to it.

bouldering gives you hella-licious power, gymnastic agility, and the opportunity to finely hone the intricacies of movement over rock in a controlled environment.

trad gives you endurance, balls, commitment and mental stamina.

now... what does sport give you that trad and bouldering do not? how does it contribute to your overall well being as a climber?

dean potter and leo houlding are two folks that will NOT make your list, and for the reasons that curt stated, I have a lot more respect for them.

Ever notice that trad climbers never have to defend themselves on this forum?

You need to go back to what I consider to be the golden age of rock climbing, which came to a close in the late 1970s...

Curt

Dear Curt,

Sport climbing definitely helps my trad climbing and vice versa. Stylistic considerations of decades gone by really have nothing to do with it. If you can make a convincing argument as to why sport climbing has NOT helped my trad climbing and vice versa, I would dearly love to read it.

DMT

perhaps i'm just being crazy

Dear Curt,

Sport climbing definitely helps my trad climbing and vice versa. Stylistic considerations of decades gone by really have nothing to do with it. If you can make a convincing argument as to why sport climbing has NOT helped my trad climbing and vice versa, I would dearly love to read it.

DMT

Real climbing (trad) and sport climbing are at odds with one another on a fundamental philosophical basis.

That's a cute artificial distinction! Sport climbing makes you stronger but it's still not climbing.

If sport climbing is good training for Trad, wouldn't that mean that it compliments Trad climbing. The two seem to have a direct correlation. Really the only difference between trad and sport is the gear issue.

Yes. That's why flying over Mt. Everest in a jet and climbing it are really the same thing. The only difference being a "gear" issue.

Curt

while i would be willing to agree that bouldering and trad compliment each other, i daresay that, in the mind of a tradwhore, trad and sport are diabolically opposed, and there's not much that sportos can do about it - well, except maybe coming to terms with being called names or drop the lycra and chop some bolts.

while i would be willing to agree that bouldering and trad compliment each other, i daresay that, in the mind of a tradwhore, trad and sport are diabolically opposed, and there's not much that sportos can do about it - well, except maybe coming to terms with being called names or drop the lycra and chop some bolts.

Where in god-name do you get your information. Some of the best trad-climbers in the world (Tommy Caldwell for one) sport-climb and pursue other types of climbing. Your somewhat limited view of sport-climbing needs to expands.
Just a few questions for you: How can climbing a lot of hard pitches not improve you climbing ability and just how many trad pitches have you led in short climbing career?

Really--is that what constitutes climbing? Anything that makes you stronger? Geez, I never really considered pull-ups and Nautilus workouts climbing before. Thanks for setting me straight.

while i would be willing to agree that bouldering and trad compliment each other, i daresay that, in the mind of a tradwhore, trad and sport are diabolically opposed, and there's not much that sportos can do about it - well, except maybe coming to terms with being called names or drop the lycra and chop some bolts.

if you were to throw them into a brawl, the sport climber would freaking kick the living crap out of the trad climbers.

The trad attitude towards sport climbng certainly posseses as much narrowmindeness and insecurities as probably any group on Earth. Whats funny is most sport climbers also trad, and many do it at a higher level than the average Trad Troll we see on these boards.

In addition, I love how the general mentality of trad climber is somehow that they are bad ass. Of all the climbers I know, round up the top sport climber versus the top trad climbers and if you were to throw them into a brawl, the sport climber would freaking kick the living crap out of the trad climbers.

Hmmm. I don't know. It would depend upon how much beans, onions, garlic and cheap beer the trad guy consumed just prior to brawl.
_________________
Why bolt it when you can toprope it?

.

In addition, I love how the general mentality of trad climber is somehow that they are bad ass. Of all the climbers I know, round up the top sport climber versus the top trad climbers and if you were to throw them into a brawl, the sport climber would freaking kick the living crap out of the trad climbers.

Let not get the leader doesn't fall attitude here. It is ok to fall on trad routes, actually most talented climbers do.

i daresay that, in the mind of a tradwhore,

Ok perhaps i'm just being crazy since i have never climbed trad or sport but how on earth are you comparing sport to bouldering. :? i can see where someone might compare trad to sport. but come on not to bouldering there has to be a big difference there.

By the same accord, why lead it when you can top rope it?

Curt, when I was bouldering a lot in the mid-80s with Gill, Murray, Lew Hoffman, Kevin Bein and other talented climbers, I was also doing some of my hardest trad-leads. When I sport climb a lot it also helps my trad-climbing abilities. Climbing a lot of rock is going to help you become a better climber. Do you agree?

I am a firm believer that sport, trad, bouldering, alpine, and freesoloing are all part of being a climber.

Funny thing that most of the people saying how complimentary sport is to trad are the same people who previously were advocating retro-bolting trad lines to make them into safe sport climbs.

So you have one sporto that maintains that sport climbers make the best trad climbers. Yet in another thread he thought that it was unsafe to have trad routes around sport climbers because they would be likely to get hurt???

Then you have another one that maintains that trad climbing is climbing with preplaced gear and in light of that trad is really sport???

Then you have the one who doesn't recognize that sometimes it is all right to fall and sometimes it is not. Climbing has evolved equipment wise to the point where it is often all right to fall; this doesn't change the fact that sometimes it isn't all right to fall. This isn't a lesson that sport climbing is well suited to teach a newbie.

As far as who I would feel more comfortable having watch my back, a sporto or a trad? Not even close.


In the end it comes down to: a stupid sport climber can do just fine sport climbing. A stupid trad climber on the other hand is a dead trad climber. This distinction is basic to the ideals I value in climbing, and it is basic to why I would rather be a trad that sport climbs, than a sport climber that also trads.

Then you have the one who doesn't recognize that sometimes it is all right to fall and sometimes it is not. Climbing has evolved equipment wise to the point where it is often all right to fall; this doesn't change the fact that sometimes it isn't all right to fall. This isn't a lesson that sport climbing is well suited to teach a newbie.

my only opinion is that the poster couldn't be more wrong.

i have no way of backing up that opinion, but here, on rc.com, a sorry, sickly white turd like me can sit on the couch, fart, and be heard. hey america, do you like violence? do you want to see me stick quarter inch bolts through each one of my eyelids?

so, here me once and for all internet dorks, the poster couldn't be more wrong!

It's about time. This thread needs a good hijacking.

Well, did you ever try Groovin' in B Major?

and of course, Amber gets the additional slam....."what have you done in your short career" as though she is not entitled to an opinion that is not in synch with the lowest common denominator here. I guess I should be glad at least that you have enough respect for me that I have escaped a similar personal attack.

Sport climbing emphasizes safe falling, but it does have situations where it "isn't alright to fall". Try falling on a typical sport climb while you have slack out to clip the second bolt.

But the point I was making had nothing to do with situations where it is not alright to fall. It is that a sadly large number of traddies think it's never all right to fall. They'd rather climb something easy for them then get on something "above their limit", where they might fall.

. But, when I ask climbers who sport climb to explain why relaxing ethics in the sport is OK,

I haven't ever met a trad that felt it was unsafe to fall under any circumstances, well maybe one, he still climbs with a swami.

There are many people who stay within the limits of their ability due to the nature of the routes they are climbing. J-tree is a good example of a place where a typical route is not particularly suited to falling on.

As far as your point about there being places on a sport climb where it is not all right to fall. Of course that is true, yet at the same time many sport climbers object to having any dangerous sections on a route i.e. most ground up routes have numerous sections like this, people(sportos) seem to object to this and call it unsafe despite the fact that it is inherent in any bolted climb.

Dingus,

I will also concede that sport climbing will help make you stronger. So will climbing in the gym, pilates, pullups, campus boards etc. That doesn't mean that I would make the claim that all these things are symbiotic compliments to Trad climbing. I see them as merely various means of training for climbing.

Curt

yeah, but I suck at water grooves man. I'm pathetic at those things. Give me face or give me death, which is wheat woud happen if I had to free solo a 100 foot water groove, unless it wsa one of thoes big grooves, like the ones up on sagee, where you cana grab those bits of quartz on the edges and scoot.

I think you just don't like bolts or sport-climbers. That personal and that ok.

Salt, lime and tequila compliment each other quite well. I don't make the mistake of equating these things however.

Sport and trad do compliment for many of us, in many ways. You said, "you couldn't be more wrong" when the original poster made the suggestion. And almost no one here agrees with you. So who "couldn't be more wrong?"

DMT

...
Adolph Hitler - Ethical Treatment of Minorities

I hope you find these useful. :wink:

Curt

You mentioned Hitler, so according to the established Internet Ethics handed down by our forefathers (Godwin's Law) I declare you the F-ING LOSER!

You mentioned Hitler, so according to the established Internet Ethics handed down by our forefathers (Godwin's Law) I declare you the F-ING LOSER!

Although, privately, I am nodding my head with what you said.

But you blew it.

Don't do it AGAIN.

Well, I have never heard of "Godwin's Law"

Well, welcome to the internet, and please stfu n00b.

Godwin in the Jargon File.

:D

My point, which may have been lost, is more this. If you ask me if I admire those climbers who have advanced the standards of climbing difficulty beyond, say Wunsch, Bachar, etal by trading off difficulty for ethics--I would clearly say NO. That's all.

My point, which may have been lost, is more this. If you ask me if I admire those climbers who have advanced the standards of climbing difficulty beyond, say Wunsch, Bachar, etal by trading off difficulty for ethics--I would clearly say NO. That's all.

Curt

This is a discussion about ethics--or at least my objection related to sport and trad climbing being complimentary is framed in a context of ethics.

Sure Dingus, everybody knows that if you are in the majority, you are always right.

Curt

I almost brought this up.

But then it occured to me: Godwin's Law doesn't apply to http-based message boards.

You need to go back to what I consider to be the golden age of rock climbing, which came to a close in the late 1970s, just when I was being introduced to the sport. Up until that time, advancements in climbing difficulty were accompanied by parallel advancements in climbing ethics. Guys like John Stannard, Steve Wunsch, Royal Robbins, John Bachar and others had advanced the standards of climbing difficulty while at the same time promoting purer ethics.

That's it Curt? That's your rebuttal? Trad and sport climbing do not compliment one another because if you are in the majority you are always right?

I'm afraid I don't quite follow you.

DMT

And almost no one here agrees with you. So who "couldn't be more wrong?"

Sure Dingus, everybody knows that if you are in the majority, you are always right.

I respect you and your opinions and the right to voice them. Let's go bouldering, san...pads

Bob,
OK, sounds good to me. I can do without the bouldering pads well enough. I may insist on the traditional carpet square to clean my shoes on though--if that's OK? :lol:

Curt

Actaully these also caused quite a ruckus when 1st being used. Ask Verm about his hunting caprpet squares article.

Curt wheres the ethics man? :lol: :shock:

Yes, how can you be a f---ing loser when you can't even use the f---ing word?

I declare Godwin's Law is now moot. We now have "Mommy Law" instead.

Nurture...

DMT

OK, sounds good to me. I can do without the bouldering pads well enough. I may insist on the traditional carpet square to clean my shoes on though--if that's OK?

It would depend upon how much beans, onions, garlic and cheap beer the trad guy consumed just prior to brawl.

I have ethics that are unassailable

I bet you leave big, ugly chalk marks everywhere you go.

curt... you're obviously smart and a hell of a climber... but I am feeling this incredible urge to bait you... you're so damn pompous....

Real climbers don't clip bolts OR drink cheap beer.

for the truly open-minded climber all types of climbing (trad, sport, bouldering, soloing, ice climbing, mixed climbing, dirt climbing, buildering, 4th-class exposed scrambling, etc.) will provide many learning opportunities that will allow one to progress in any single discipline to an extent greater than that if one focused on that discipline alone. i feel silly stating the obvious but it appears that so many people are either "trad climbers", "sport climbers", "ice climbers", etc. they miss the obvious benefits of different climbing experiences.

w/ respect to sport complementing trad i can only speak from personal experience but i would suggest that this is possible. however, this probably depends on the individual - their strenghts and weaknesses w/ respect to continued improvement in their chosen discipline. i started basic trad climbing years ago teaching myself how to climb using Robbin's "Basic Rockcraft" and "Advanced Rockcraft" manuals, some webbing for a harness, a figure 8 for rappelling/belaying, a few locking biners, a set of chouinard hexes and stoppers and a dynamic rope. I trad climbed for several years w/ some improvement but saw a more rapid improvement when i started to do some sport climbing in addition to trad climbing. For me, both disciplines had something to offer. Trad climbing taught me commitment and composure on lead, the responsibility and confidence of placing your own gear, and the freedom that comes with protecting a line using only natural features of the rock. On the other hand, sport taught me about efficiency and pacing of movement, gave me greater strength and endurance, and it provided me w/ a truer understanding of my physical limits.

Now, i mostly sport climb because i hate hauling all the gear that comes w/ trad climbing and i enjoy the unincumbered freedom of movement that one finds w/ sport climbing. Oh, and i also boulder and do some ice climbing (less now). Does this then make me a "sport climber"? Has this new focus erroded my values and aesthetics? I'll let someone else decide that. I do what makes me happy now. What i do next year or in 10 years will be what is right for me at that time.

Finally, i still find it funny when my "large-testicled, real-climbing, manly" trad friends finally talk me into giving up a sport weekend to join them trad climbing. The climbing and company is always good but what is better is seeing them trying to make sense of this "sport-climbing p*ssy" who sends trad lines they could only hope to someday experience.

I bet you leave big, ugly chalk marks everywhere you go.

curt... you're obviously smart and a hell of a climber... but I am feeling this incredible urge to bait you... you're so damn pompous....

STFU you third world sport climber

Screw you, I'm a top-roper. :x