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yay_chris
Apr 2, 2004, 6:10 AM
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I've seen people wearing harnesses with a self-made, back-up belay loop. What they did was tie a small loop of cordelettle through the tie-in positions on their harness. A locking biner would then go through both loops.
Sure, I know the belay loop is nearly bomb-proof but it seems like a reasonable thing to do since it would be slightly safer and not really add any weight to the harness.
Does anyone else here do this?
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jimdavis
Apr 2, 2004, 6:18 AM
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If you doubt your belay loop, ditch the harness. Any real world force that would break that thing will certainly break you too. And backing it up with a loop of 7 mill would only be one more thing you need to worry about.
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yay_chris
Apr 2, 2004, 6:25 AM
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The forces required to bust a belay loop would kill a person, but the loop could still fray apart from wear. Although I have never seen or heard of this happening.
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capn_morgan
Apr 2, 2004, 2:16 PM
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things dont "fray apart with wear" very quickly. Its a cumulative thing. If you ispect your harness before you throw it on, you will notice wether your belay loop is frayed or not. If it is...I would hope that you would replace it.
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rrrADAM
Apr 2, 2004, 2:30 PM
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I have seen this, but they do it to gain another loop to attach to, not as a backup.
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glencoe
Apr 2, 2004, 2:36 PM
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Abolsutely back up the belay loop. The lack of redundancy in climbing systems is a major shortcoming. I have no idea what the quality control of the manufucaturer is. If Ford Motor can make mistakes that spark recalls from the DOT, Moe's harness shop out of Rangely Colorado can too.
When harnesses came into wide-use in the 1980s, many people who had been in the sport questioned the integrity of sewing they did not witness. We are just now used to it.
Remember, 10s of thousands of licensed-engineer hours going into each certified airplane, and some of them fail every year----there is no backup wing system.
George Allen
author of "Ultrasafe-A Guide to Safer Rockclimbing,"
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noshoesnoshirt
Apr 2, 2004, 2:59 PM
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In reply to: Remember, 10s of thousands of licensed-engineer hours going into each certified airplane, and some of them fail every year----there is no backup wing system.
yeah, but the belay loop on my harness is slightly less complex than your average airplane.
if you're gonna worry about backing up the belay loop you might as well sling a handtied swami around you as back-up for your sewn waist belt and forged buckle. and use two ropes. and two biners.
maybe two belayers in case one fails - after all this is what the boy scouts do.
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j_ung
Apr 2, 2004, 2:59 PM
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In reply to: Abolsutely back up the belay loop. The lack of redundancy in climbing systems is a major shortcoming. I have no idea what the quality control of the manufucaturer is. If Ford Motor can make mistakes that spark recalls from the DOT, Moe's harness shop out of Rangely Colorado can too. author of "Ultrasafe-A Guide to Safer Rockclimbing,"
Just want to point out that even if the stitching on the belay loop is done by a lobotomized blind jelly fish it will hold an astonishing amount of static weight. A belay loop isn't just one loop, it's a continuous wrap. The friction generated between the loops needs little help at relatively low loads, sort of like a friction wrap around a tree. Add any stitching at all and the loop is markedly stronger.
That said, I have seen people add additional slings to the tie-in points of a harness, but it's been either to add a separate, second clip-in point or create an extendable clip-in point, not to back up the belay loop. If your loop is frayed, replace the harness.
(Warning - unproven second-hand information ahead: I heard of an experiment at Misty that involved a belay loop - DUCK TAPED together instead of stitched - that held almost 2000 lbs.)
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asandh
Apr 2, 2004, 3:07 PM
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:)
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vegastradguy
Apr 2, 2004, 3:29 PM
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sheesh folks, it's a belay loop. have you seen them? if you're that paranoid, perhaps you should take up a less....scary sport.
check your harness regularly for wear. if the loop is worn, buy a new harness.
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rrrADAM
Apr 2, 2004, 3:32 PM
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Might wanna climb with two ropes so you have some redundancy there too, as only one rope and poor quality control equals death, right ??? :roll:
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curt
Apr 2, 2004, 3:34 PM
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You guys have obviously been had by another "April Fools" thread. :D Good one too.
Curt
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epic_ed
Apr 2, 2004, 3:38 PM
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Trolling for morons again... :roll:
I think it's much more important to have a back up for lunch. In case your pastrami and cheddar bagle takes a plummet from the second pitch, it's nice to have one of those nifty new Snicker's Marathon bars as a fall back. I suppose if you had a back up belay loop, you could always clip the bagle into it and nip this potential tragedy in the bud.
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boulder_boy
Apr 2, 2004, 3:38 PM
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I agree with you guys inorder to break the loop on your harness whoud either
A kill you
B maim you
C ruin your life
they are so simple that they arent bound to fail unlike a airplane wing it doesnt have hundreds of things the engineers have to worry about
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mingus
Apr 2, 2004, 3:39 PM
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I know a guy that backs up his belay loop... and then uses one locker and one ATC to belay with one rope.
Redundancy is a good thing, but the belay loop is bomber for chrissake. Some things you just have to trust - like your rope, your belay device, your locker and your harness (provided of course that it isn't old and/or frayed.)
If you really feel better doing it go ahead and use another loop. Then scrutinize your belay device, rope and locker.
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sillymnkee
Apr 2, 2004, 3:41 PM
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In reply to: Abolsutely back up the belay loop. The lack of redundancy in climbing systems is a major shortcoming. George Allen author of "Ultrasafe-A Guide to Safer Rockclimbing,"
You should probably wear two harnesses then. Seriously, we won't make fun of you. We promise.
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grayhghost
Apr 2, 2004, 4:09 PM
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Most of the people making harnesses these days are climbers themselves who for obvious reasons climb on their own gear. So do they have some special super-pro-model harness that only they have access to? With fifteen belay loops equalized for a static breaking force of 5^24 kg? No, they climb with their own harnesses because they trust their lives to them. I know my dirtbag life is worth way less than a PETZL engineer so I trust their harnesses too.
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asandh
Apr 2, 2004, 4:15 PM
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:)
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robmcc
Apr 2, 2004, 4:23 PM
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I think the obvious question is this:
Has a belay loop ever failed? If so, under what circumstances? Unless one has failed at some point, ever, I'm not even going to worry about it.
Rob
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iclimbtoo
Apr 2, 2004, 4:46 PM
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I usually back up my belay loop, and then reinforce that with a daisy that goes to my haul loop. That is only after I place 4 pieces for an anchor and find a tree no less than '2 radius to backup those anchors with. I usually also have two friends helping me belay so we have six hands on the rope at all times... :wtf:
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rope_burn
Apr 2, 2004, 4:51 PM
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I use two belay loops and two ropes when climbing up the stairs...when I am climbing rock I use three of each and have a 10x10x5 foot crash pad at the bottom of the route. And I NEVER climb pitches higher than twenty five feet!!!
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traddad
Apr 2, 2004, 5:08 PM
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In reply to: Its called redundancy, and if its too much trouble for you, don't bother to tie in to my rope.
OK.
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rgold
Apr 2, 2004, 5:16 PM
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Those wishing to read an authoritative discussion of belay loop use and strength by a harness designer might want to read the following rec.climbing post by Chris Harmston.
I have never heard of a belay loop failing in practice, but the post mentions belay loops failing on used harnesses at 3,000 lbs, which is about 2,000 lbs less than the average strength of a new belay loop, but which is still (at about 13 kN) considerably below the worst-case scenario impact obtainable with dynamic climbing ropes. In other words, the used harness tested was still perfectly safe.
My personal opinion is that backing up the belay loop is an example of overattention to the wrong detail. First of all, the thing ain't gonna break under rappel loading. If you are worried about that as a realistic possibility that needs attention, then as many posters have suggested, you'll never get off the ground if you are consistent in attending to potential dangers.
If there is a concern about belay loop failure, it is what happens in a multipitch climbing situation when a belayer has to hold a very high fall-factor fall, in which case the harness will be subjected to a very high load. There is cause for concern here, but interestingly enough, focusing on the belay loop misses the point. The forces imposed on the rest of the harness by the belay loop and the tie-in attachment are the real source of potential failure, according to the post referenced above, and backing up the belay loop with an additional loop does nothing to alleviate this problem. In other words, failure, if it does occur, is much more likely to occur at some point other than the belay loop, so the belay loop backup is a solution to the wrong problem.
The important thing is that the belay device locker should be clipped to both the belay loop and the tie-in loop, so that extreme belay forces are transmitted by the climbing rope directly to the anchor, rather than having the harness stressed by the anchor rope pulling one way and the belay loop another. This spares the harness from extreme and unpredictable stresses, backs up the belay loop with stronger material than one inch webbing, and doesn't add extra clutter to the harness and extra tightness to the rope tie-in channels.
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asandh
Apr 2, 2004, 5:27 PM
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:)
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mrme
Apr 7, 2004, 12:24 AM
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well if your ropeing up corectly every time you climb you have no need to back up the loop. you should be tied into the rope 'just use the rope as the back up'.
and yes you can say what about rapping. well it is usually just body weight and not fall forces involved there so it shouldn't be as big of a deal. if it is go for the backup on the loop.
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