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papounet
Apr 16, 2004, 10:42 AM
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Amber_chk wrote
In reply to: i have laid the mistakes that led to my accident on the table for people to sift through in hopes of bringing to light people's own awareness of themselves, their general competence at truly and accurately gauging their own ability, their relative risk/safety balance as well as the way that they choose partners, pursue goals, etc. it's a lofty goal, for sure - but i'm an idealist. regardless, the lessons themselves, imho, are subjective - people will learn different things based on their relative place in life, climbing experience, and so forth.
Dear,
this has been your best post so far (is it because it is the shortest ? ;-)) this is a joke, not a personal attack).
Thank you again for bringing this important message across with your vivid description.
I do wonder however about how many of the "accidents-waiting-to-happen" will actually look critically into their fitness, technique or motivation.
Could you consider writing a piece on a monthly basis or a sticky ????
(only half a joke)
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calamity_chk
Apr 16, 2004, 3:01 PM
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In reply to: Dear, this has been your best post so far (is it because it is the shortest ? ;-)) this is a joke, not a personal attack). Thank you again for bringing this important message across with your vivid description. I do wonder however about how many of the "accidents-waiting-to-happen" will actually look critically into their fitness, technique or motivation. Could you consider writing a piece on a monthly basis or a sticky ???? (only half a joke)
Dear Papounet,
I apologize for my long-windedness. I, too, wonder how many of the other "accidents-waiting-to-happen" will actually look critically at themselves, but being the eternal idealist, "at least I know I tried™." If they choose to point a finger and laugh instead of learning the lessons that they need to learn, there's nothing else that I could have done - "I did my best™."
On a brighter note, however, I've received tons of PMs from users who have actually realized various mistakes they were making without realizing they were mistakes until reading my report and have received dozens more PMs from people who've made similar mistakes - these messages make the effort worthwhile to my little idealist self.
Best regards,
Amber Chk
PS. After commenting rather harshly about my diet, it was recommended that I change my diet to doughnuts and beer. As I've mentioned somewhere in the million+ posts about this, a pretty big factor in the bonking was a medical history of mild hyperinsulinism - a condition that I regretably misunderstimated and wished that I would have discussed with my climbing partner, but alas .. hindsight is 20/20. Point to the rambling is, foods such as these would make the condition seriously worse, not better. While I'm sure it was intended to be a joke, this is meant to be a constructive thread. Jokes about my color coordination (or lack thereof) are funny; jokes about the factors contributing to my accident arent.
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rockbabe
Apr 16, 2004, 7:26 PM
Post #128 of 140
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I haven't read all the posts so forgive me if this is repetitive. I see a lot of hypocrisy in the little time I am able to spend on this site. I see a lot of people saying, "Be bold, push your limits, don't be a wuss". I then see those same people jumping on Amber for doing just that. Please explain?
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coach
Apr 16, 2004, 7:53 PM
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Rockbabe,
You are absolutely right! The same folks that criticize Amber are the ones that praise a Dan Osman for doing it his way! Go figure! :?
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leinosaur
Apr 16, 2004, 7:57 PM
Post #130 of 140
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In reply to: I see a lot of people saying, "Be bold, push your limits, don't be a wuss". I then see those same people jumping on Amber for doing just that.
Too true, rockbabe - but armchair quarterbacking is like that. It's also a weird product of all of us - noobs like me and the oldsters - sharing the same forum; unlikely in real life. It's like, "don't talk to me 'til you're sending 5.11, but don't be in too big of a hurry"
one of the central paradoxes of the draw of climbing, and a big part of the excitement.
Amber, I don't think many people realize how psychological hyperinsulinism is - "bonking" is a subtle slide down a pretty emotional slope, upon which people say and do things they'd never think of doing under "normal" circ's.
I have pretty much the same condition, and it's one of my #1 concerns about climbing; I try to make sure I have plenty of high-protein and low-sugar (not necc. low-carb but whole-grain if carby) stuff on hand -
"Power-gel" sounds like it would be a VERY short-term fix bonk-wise.
Also, some of the confusion with the Brits is that "bonking" is to "get it on" in britspeak, in case that hasn't been covered (I haven't caught up in a day or two)
Anyway, you rock Amber; you write very well especially in the original narrative. Definitely think of publishing. Best of luck with the nutrition; sugar-free nicorette might be a good idea, too, and let us know when you're visiting back in OK. You missed a heck of a spring fling!
leinosaur
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calamity_chk
Apr 16, 2004, 8:41 PM
Post #131 of 140
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In reply to: Amber, I don't think many people realize how psychological hyperinsulinism is - "bonking" is a subtle slide down a pretty emotional slope, upon which people say and do things they'd never think of doing under "normal" circ's. I have pretty much the same condition, and it's one of my #1 concerns about climbing; I try to make sure I have plenty of high-protein and low-sugar (not necc. low-carb but whole-grain if carby) stuff on hand
leinosaur
thanks for the comments. unfortunately, i've never taken the hyperinsulinism as seriously as i should have, but i've also never experienced such an incredible state of hypoglycemia. i generally just pop something sugary when i start feeling cranky and am okay - this time, there just wasnt enough in the reserves for this to be effective.
i also have better foods on hand most of the time, but the power gel's just seemed more convenient since we were trying to minimize weight/bulk. mark that as another lesson learned. though, i've been much more cognizant of my daily diet since the accident; ie, cutting back on sugars, more whole foods, etc.
also, since my diet and general body weight are partly under attack since they contributed to the accident by encouraging the hypo state, i wanted to clarify a couple of things. a) i never expected to fall into such a hypo state. if i had expected it, i would have discussed it in depth with my partner before setting out. needless to say, future partners will be well aware. b) when i admitted to losing weight over the past several months, i didnt anticipate someone coming from left field with accusations of anorexia. feeling guilty about your eating habits (high sugar/high carb) when you know that you have borderline hyperinsulinism which will likely turn itself into diabetes if you dont improve your diet is significantly different than starving yourself. yes, i'm thin and yes i've dropped probably about 10 lbs in the last year, but there are medical reasons for this weight loss which are being addressed. unfortunately for me, it usually takes about three times as long to put weight on as it takes for me to lose it. i'm hoping to be back to my normal weight by fall.
further, i apologize if not fully explaining the situation in a single post led to confusion. i have mentioned elsewhere that i have issues with blood sugar and mistakenly assumed that people would understand that low blood sugar == hyperinsulinism == hypoglycemia == severe bonking == BAD.
as for the spring fling, i'm sad that i missed it and thought about driving down - but the whole painkiller thing made me leary about driving too far from home. maybe i can make a trip down there in june and hang out for a weekend. can we have a late spring fling?? :D
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trialschump
Apr 16, 2004, 9:15 PM
Post #132 of 140
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delete
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trbrts
Apr 16, 2004, 10:44 PM
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I've never met this person and I don't expect to meet any of you guys. (I come here for the photos) I read her accident thread and from what I can tell, her biggest mistake was not tying a knot in the end of the rope. Something tells me that she won't do that again. Anyway, we all get in over our head. That's how we move up the grades. If everyone on here climbed half as hard as you spray then you would all be Tommy Caldwell. Some of the people on this website are the arm chair quarter-backs of the climbing world.
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thrasher
Apr 16, 2004, 10:49 PM
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Actually, you should tie the end of the rope to your harness...too easy to screw up the knot at the end thing.
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moabbeth
Apr 16, 2004, 11:21 PM
Post #135 of 140
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I have deleted all comments I made in this thread. I only meant to show concern for her health and NEVER meant any slander, harm or disparaging of Amber and am sorry if it came across poorly. I in no way meant for people to think I was accusing her of having an eating disorder...I guess I did a poor job of explaining my concerns after she mentioned it initially and in no way did I intend to imply she might be anorexic. And I am truly sorry if anything I said was misconstrued in a negative light because I only wish the best for Amber. I guess I did a very poor job of expressing that. I don't know her enough to presume or judge anything about her.
There. Here's my mea culpa. I suck. Peace now, okay? :?
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rocknalaska
Apr 16, 2004, 11:24 PM
Post #136 of 140
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Registered: Jul 19, 2002
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WTF!!!!
quick disclaimer-I don't know amber and therefore cannot accurately judge her situation. Also, this is merely my opinion.
It seems to me that every time we go climbing we make a choice(whether we choose to acknowledge it or not) to accept the inherent risks involved. These risks vary greatly depending on what we choose to climb, but the choice is still there, and it is still ours to make.
Everyone has to make their own decisions based upon their own life experiences and circumstances. When people are young, fit, and free of responsibility, they will tend to take more risks. Which is the way it should be.
As we age, get married, have kids, etc. our responsibilities change and therefore our level of acceptable risk SHOULD CHANGE.
IMHO, this happens much less than it should.
To me ANYONE who has young children and CHOOSES to risk dying as a result of pushing their limits in climbing should be taken out and beaten to a pulp. Left alive and intact so they can still raise their children, but seriously encouraged not to do it again.
When your children are older and can both better understand the reasons for what you're doing and are also able to support themselves, then you can go out and start pushing those limits. Until then absolutely not.
I have a daughter who is developmentally delayed, she may never be able to function on her own. I may never have the luxury of pushing those limits again in my life. SO BE IT. I made the decision to have children, I WILL LIVE BY IT, regardless of what is going on, that child deserves to be put first.
So, for myself, I will judge Amber and think that she did something exceptionally stupid from start to finish. From her physical condition, mental condition, the previous weekend's activities, lack of sleep, apparent lack of technical ability, and lack of consideration for her child, she behaved in a way that deserves being berated, as I'm sure she realizes. She already knows this or she wouldn't have posted what she did.
So whether or not one should push their limits. I respect those who are in a position to push their risk limits and do so, but I have absolutely no respect for those who push that limit when they have a family.
Once again this is my opinion, and I wasn't there, and I don't know amber personally.
As far as her sharing it with community. I appluad her for her strength, and I hope that the positive that has come about with this will stick.
Todd
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mattdog
Apr 16, 2004, 11:40 PM
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I'm just glad Amber is still alive.
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petsfed
Apr 16, 2004, 11:55 PM
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Day late and a dollar short I suppose on this thread (as its all been said before) but its very difficult to see what kind of mess you're in when you're still in it. This is true regardless of what you're doing, be it acting the tool on RC.com or making some ill-timed mistakes in Zion. So here's what we all need to do. Every couple weeks or so, go back and re-examine your past. Re-read your major posts here on the site. Rethink that waaay sick and bold lead you did. Was it worth it? Could you've done better? Did you make any mistakes?
Sometimes it takes a huge mistake to make us see the light. And sometimes it takes a little mistake to kill us. I can pick out the mistakes Amber (whom I've never met, and likely won't ever either, a simple issue of wrong place/wrong time) made in her report. But the point is so can she. But if I go back over my near-death experiences (note that its plural) I can probably tell you if I tied my shoes right that morning. Its all a learning experience.
And lastly, because this is one of my pet peeves, how many of you who criticize 1) can honestly say you've NEVER made the same mistakes (or similar ones) and 2) have the balls to tell Amber, to her face, that she's foolish. I know that I don't think she was foolish, but moreover, if I did I'd have no qualms telling her at the crag, should we ever meet. Its easy to judge from a computer, its not so easy to judge from reality.
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mreardon
Apr 17, 2004, 3:57 AM
Post #139 of 140
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In reply to: mike. out of curiosity, did meredith brooks inspire that post.
Nope, Dr. Suess.
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unabonger
Apr 17, 2004, 4:54 AM
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In reply to: Maybe we can't judge ambition per se, but we should examine that line where it turns into recklessness and see if we can't learn something about how to approach that blurry spot where "that which is what we don't know that we don't know" lurks. The BlurredBonger
Mmm. I said that? Wow. I've impressed myself.
The EvilTwinBonger
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