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jaedward
May 20, 2004, 1:21 AM
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Hi, i am looking for tips to improve my time performance on long routes, talking about racking gear, asembling belays stations, team work,etc.
Thanks.
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reno
May 20, 2004, 1:33 AM
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Clean and re-rack gear efficiently. When you pull out a cam, rack it as you would want it for a lead (if possible.) Having to re-sort the rack at each belay wastes time.
Rope management. Learn to flake the rope as you bring up your second. Some use rope buckets. Some flake over a sling. Some stack in a pile. Whatever you use, make it efficient.
Get comfortable with the idea of runout pitches. Many folks I see, myself included, like to have gear every 4-5 feet. Place gear... make a move upwards... place gear... make a move. While more gear is a good idea down low, as you get higher, you can run it out a bit and still be safe.
Improve footwork. Less flailing = less time for each movement. That means more movement per minute. And THAT means fewer minutes per pitch. Climb smooth.
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alpnclmbr1
May 20, 2004, 2:29 AM
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Place gear with controlling rope drag being the most important factor.
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tradmanclimbs
May 20, 2004, 4:28 AM
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Good pre planned communication between partners. know when to run pitches together. know when NOT to run pitches together. You won't save any time if you get in a henious drag situation or get you ropes hopelessly jammed. 70 meter ropes suck, just more spagetti to deal with at belays. (just my opinion) Smooth transfer at belays. Re rack as you clean. Back in the eightys we used to use a lot of Peruvian marching powder. Speeds the s#it out of the climb but kind of sucks on the back end coming down part :shock:
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doktor_g
May 20, 2004, 5:28 AM
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Howdy,
Me giving advice on climbing fast is almost laughable, but with some experience under my belt I'll tell you what works for me.
1. Although I don't doubt Pmyche's experience, I respectfully disaggree about ignoring belay stations. Generally, belay stations are established on ledges, outcrops, before or after traverses, roofs and buldges that make stopping to belay the right decision. A good belay ledge makes for a more simple and reliable anchor and means of rope stacking (a big time loser). I do, however, believe that linking pitches is an INCREDIBLE time saver and I suggest it if possible. If you run out of rope be prepared to anchor, simulclimb or downclimb.
2. Agree on communications before the climb. Tugs on the rope is tradition. Modern climbers like to use walkie-talkies. I've been considering using whistles. Yes, like a real whistle. Haven't tried it yet though.
3. Consider leading in blocks rather than swinging leads. It allows you or your partner to get into the "zone" and keeps one of you on the bench in reserve for the crux pitch.
4. If you're aiding, climb in a group of three. One leads, one belays one hauls.
5. Handing off. Whether you rerack while your cleaning or not, you're still doing it. One is while you hang from your fingertips the other from your harness. I tend to not worry about doing while I'm climbing unless it's convenient. Know how each of you like to rack. If it's different hand it off so that they have it like they like it.
6. Some suggest two ropes, I'm not smart enough to keep it from becoming a nightmare at the belay. I steer clear unless partners demand it or if I'm on ice.
7. When you hang from your daisy at the belay loop the rope over it butterfly style. When the second comes up, flip the rope over his/her daisy. This can put the sharp-end you) on top if y'all are leading in blocks. Otherwise, he's/she's on top and already ready to blast off.
8. Simulclimb. What a timesaver. Works great, until it doesn't. If it doesn't it can be CATASTROPHIC. Weaker climber on top, leading. Stronger on the bottom. Be careful. You'll boogie, but you may get into Accidents in NA Mountaineering too.
9. In the words of Jim Bridwel (I think) "Light is right." If you bring bivy gear, you'll probablly have to bivy.
10. Or you could do what I do... climb easy stuff.
11. If the clouds are threatening to open up god's wrath... F$%k style. Don't bother trying to tip toe pass that 5.12 move on the 7th pitch that you can do... maybe. Grab the pro reach for the jug and get up and down fast.
Grover
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phugganut
May 20, 2004, 5:41 AM
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When in doubt, run it out.
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crack_feine1
May 20, 2004, 4:56 PM
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An autolocking belay device like a reverso makes for quick lead changes, easier rope management when belaying. When swapping leads the belayer leves the second on belay,locked in, and can rerack and get the gear ready. when the new leader is ready the second puts the leader on and is ready to go.
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tedc
May 20, 2004, 5:10 PM
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Over-protecting is HUGE. The time to make each placement is multiplied by about 3 in the overall pitch time. Time to place, time to clean, time to re-rack/organize. Thus, each placement skipped will save you about 3 times as much time as it would have taken to place it. Also, if you just leave more gear on the ground it will lighten the rack AND speed up the organization at each belay. :D
That said. Not much takes longer than rescuing an injured leader. :(
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shaggyj
May 20, 2004, 5:14 PM
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Learn rope tug commands or buy FRS radios.
I learned my lesson on windy routes not knowing when the leader is off belay or when the second is on belay.
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vegastradguy
May 20, 2004, 5:16 PM
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three things will help you speed up on the rock drastically. everything else is something to work on after you get these down. it will improve your speed, but not as much as these three.
1) rope management. probably the number one thing to improve while climbing multipitch. everyone can improve something in this area.
2) onsight level. being able to read the rock in front of you and move comfortably over it no matter what the grade is going to also improve your speed. you can be the best rope manager and changeover person in the world, but if it takes you an hour to lead a pitch because you cant figure out the moves on a 5.7, then youre still going to epic. be able to climb close to your limit as quickly as you can climb say a 5.5/6. at your limit, most likely, you are going to slow down. all the more reason to be quick when on easy to moderate ground.
3) overprotecting. protect judiciously. when theres a huge stance, dont ignore it. dont protect in the middle of the crux. depending on the fall, you may choose to overprotect a bit. this takes more experience than the other two, i think, to do well.
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tedc
May 20, 2004, 5:19 PM
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In reply to: An autolocking belay device like a reverso makes for quick lead changes, easier rope management when belaying. When swapping leads the belayer leves the second on belay,locked in, and can rerack and get the gear ready. when the new leader is ready the second puts the leader on and is ready to go.
I disagree with this. If there is a convenient re-direct at the belay I think it is faster to belay in normal mode (you don't have to move, unclip/re-clip the belay device to swith to lead belaying) and when the second arrives at the belay they clove to the re-direct biner and I throw a knot on the brake side of my reverso. Swap gear e.t.c. I untie knot. ON BEALY. they undo clove hitch and that biner is the first piece for the next lead (preventing a FF2).
The only time I use the auto-block mode is if the second is going to hang ALOT. If that is the case speed is pretty much out the window anyway.
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davidji
May 20, 2004, 5:54 PM
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In reply to: Hi, i am looking for tips to improve my time performance on long routes, talking about racking gear, asembling belays stations, team work,etc. Thanks.
There are lots of things to think about. One that I often see done poorly is this: As second are you ready to climb when you're put on belay? I try to be (or within say 30 seconds max, if I needed to maintain the anchor as long as possible).
Efficient reracking is a big speed thing. Do you rerack when you climb? Assuming you get a chance, it's much easier for next leader to get organized if they dont have nuts & cams hiding on various slings all over the place.
And as someone else mentioned, overprotecting is a big slowdown thing.
Some of these things (like the overprotecting) are safety vs speed tradeoffs. For example, many of us often place pro as high as possible to protect a sketchy move. But if we were solid on the route and could always place pro at waist height, we'd be faster.
For aid climbing, what gave me the most speedup was to wear rock shoes instead of boots, and to "free" climb the stuff near my freeclimbing limit. This means climbing it in a mixture of free and crack-jumar style, instead of standard aid climbing.
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fredbob
May 20, 2004, 6:57 PM
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Lots of very good advise given. To emphasize a few points:
A. Transitions (at belay stations) are where most parties lose the most time.
1. Rope management (good advise already given) is important.
2. Unless you are doing really long routes (12 or more pitches), I question whether leading in blocks is really that helpful.
3. If speed is important, rack with a comfortable shoulder racking sling, not on your harness. It can often speed handing over gear.
4. Keep the 2nd on belay (clove hitch/back up knot as suggested) while handing over gear.
5. Racking as you clean is important to the speed of the transition.
B. Not mentioned, but should be obvious: Being good at placing pro quickly and efficiently is super vital. Most time leading a pitch is actually spent placing gear, not climbing. The same skills will let you set up a belay quickly too, which is a HUGE time killer.
C. Running it out on easier ground is an excellent way of reducing time spent for both leader and follower, but it requires the leader to be steady, competent and confident; traits many climbers lack.
D. Simul climbing easy sections is a great way of reducing time, but again, it isn't recommended for most climbers.
E. Good communication with partner is key and, unlike many domestic relationships, only improves with familiarity!
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bandycoot
May 20, 2004, 7:21 PM
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On the longest free climb I've ever done running it out was KEY. We did about a 2000' climb. If you make a placement every 5' that's 400 placements! Every 10' that's 200 placements. :shock: Let's say 30 seconds/placement including setting, clipping, cleaning, reracking. That's 100 minutes or almost 2 hours lost! We were running it out around 40+' sometimes and CRUISIN! It really helped to keep rope drag down as well.
Josh
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petsfed
May 20, 2004, 7:33 PM
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The best tip for going fast while actually climbing is to throw ethics out the window. If you're in a hurry, chances are you don't have time to work out the beta. So unless you already know the move and can do it, yard on gear and keep moving. Free climbing is only faster if you're not spending a minute on each move. Conversely, if you have to bust out the aiders for every move, and not a speed aider (double sling with two loops tied in it) for a bolt ladder, you've picked the wrong route for going fast.
Get your racking system dialed and charge.
ALWAYS have an efficient and obvious anchor system. Don't equalize 14 pieces together cat's cradle style and expect your partner to tear it down quickly. Cordolette makes for an excellent belay system, especially if the leading is in blocks.
Travel light. If you're rapping back to the base of the climb (no walk off), ditch the approach shoes. If you're really suffering, you can probably rap barefoot. Give the pro you don't need for the next pitch to your partner. Consider belaying with munther hitches and rappelling with hexes. Anything to shave a few extra ounces. Pair down the rack to what is absolutely necessary to do the route safely.
Pick a climb that's easier than the onsight level of your weakest leader. That way, everybody can run it out if necessary. This also means you can climb with less gear, which means less gear to be hauled up. Pick a route with bolted belays. Makes the changeover incredibly fast.
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davidji
May 20, 2004, 7:39 PM
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Many important points have been discussed above. Still, I recommend reading "Climb On! Skills for Efficient Climbing" by Bill Wright & Hans Florine.
Two things that haven't been discussed much:
1. The second should be ready to climb as soon as possible after being put on belay. In some cases instantly. In some cases it takes a little longer (rarely more than 30 seconds). If for example you can't clean the entire anchor in advance, maybe you can just take down the hard to clean part. Some people routinely take several minutes, or more...
2. Choose your partner well. I'm sure I don't need to go into detail here. Some people do things efficiently, and many others are eager and able to learn.
Item 1, along with many of the previous points can be viewed as speed/safety tradeoffs. While it's important to try to keep safe, we must remember that, especially on long climbs, moving faster is often much safer.
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dingus
May 20, 2004, 7:45 PM
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"Light is Right." John Bouchard
"Efficient Rope Management" "If you take bivy gear you will use it." "Be fit." Ivon Chouinard
What's with these ards?
I disagree with fancy reracking as the second climbs. Nope. Use one gear sling for the team. The second removes each piece as quickly as possible, with little thought to anything other than climbing. Leave it hanging on the rope or slap dash it to the harness quicklty as possible. It is easier to rerack with 4 hands instead of two, at a belay stance instead of hanging by one hand and one foot while you seperate a sling from a piece. When you get to the belay, daisy in. The second racks the pieces back on to the sling on the leaders shoulder. The leader opens the rack up at the right spot for each piece. Once done (30 seconds, a minute perhaps?) the leader takes the sling off the shoulder and hands it to the 2nd. Slings or whatever next, a quick drink of water, on belay and the daisy is off. CLIMBING! Much more efficient than attempting to rerack while seconding using two slings
And both team members should be willing to rack the same way for this to work however. It sucks if you're a 'gate in, right side' and your partner is 'gate out, right dide (what is UP with those people ANYWAY! SHEESH!).
Get your gear placements right the first time. As others have said, protect before and after a crux, not during.
Having a like minded partner is the key though. Hauling ass sucks when you gotta haul two of them! Both team members gotta be willing to run. Everything else falls into place in a climb or three, a well oiled machine of two.
DMT
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planetgranite_climber
May 20, 2004, 9:32 PM
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In reply to: The best tip for going fast while actually climbing is to throw ethics out the window. If you're in a hurry, chances are you don't have time to work out the beta. So unless you already know the move and can do it, yard on gear and keep moving.
I'm just wondering won't you get into a habit once you start doing it? The gear above you looks tempting when you can't see your next hold; you don't want your belayer to suffer any longer in his hanging belay; and best of all, nobody can see you do it. Most people are honest. They come down and tell people that they did the climb, they had to french free, and they had fun. But the next day, they would have forgotten about the french free part, and tell people that they did the climb and they had fun. A climb, no matter how much you suffered on it, always sounds more fun as time goes by.
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petsfed
May 20, 2004, 9:46 PM
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I suggest french freeing only when you try one or two things and neither worked. Spending several minutes experimenting is simply not worth it. Moreover, either way you break your rythym. The sooner you get back to cruising, the less aiding will enter your mind.
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smellyhippie
May 20, 2004, 9:52 PM
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Transition:
This works for me. It takes two reversos. As the second cleans, he racks on a sling--doesn't have to pay to much attention to it, just clips it in. When he starts to follow, he also clips a locker and a reverso to the sling. When he reaches the belay, he clips the rack (the one he just cleaned) to the anchor. He daisies into the anchor. It's his responsibility now to re-flake out the rope. It's my responsibility to re-rack. When he's ready, he takes himself off the reverso and puts me on. And I go.
Nate
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maculated
May 20, 2004, 9:54 PM
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In reply to: What's with these ards?
Aren't they swedish? They're the leaders in efficiency: case in point, the Swiss Army Knife. And uh . . . I like those gummy fishies.
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tradmanclimbs
May 20, 2004, 10:13 PM
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Learn how to set up a solid belay sometime today. It shouldn't take long. Many leaders take forever :evil: learn how to break it down to the last piece before your leader puts you on. If it's a really long pitch you can take the leader out when there is only a few ft of rope left as your body then becomes the belay. now you can break down the anchor to 1 piece and be ready to go. When following if you can't figure it out right away FRENCH. Nothing is more maddening than blasting up a pitch and then wasteing 20 min while your second putzes arround trying to work a move. the leader can work it a little bit but if it's a choice between getting dark and getting up and off then by all means french. If the Climb has aid pitches on it then there is basicly no excuse to waste time working free moves. It's an aid climb anyways.
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madmax
May 20, 2004, 10:22 PM
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I agree with Dingus on reracking at the belay. Reracking as you go along requires hanging out longer, which gets you more pumped, which makes the pitch take longer cuz you're tired. Much easier to have two people at a comfy belay working on redoing slings and sorting nuts.
Taking the belay apart quickly is also key. Knowing exactly what your partner does when they get to the belay helps. For example, when I get to a belay, I secure myself as quickly as possible to a single bomber piece, yell off belay, and finish building the anchor. While I'm building the anchor, the second can be taking their anchor apart, so that when my anchor is done, I pull up the slack and all my partner has to do is undo a single remaining piece.
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bubba
May 21, 2004, 2:08 AM
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In reply to: and rappelling with hexes.
Rapping with hexes? I'm not familiar with that technique...
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