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sync
Jul 5, 2004, 4:13 PM
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Here's one convoluted anchor that I saw yesterday at the Lake that I just had to get a few pictures of.
First pic is the overall view:
http://img78.photobucket.com/...anchors/IMG_3356.jpg
Second is the view from the top:
http://img78.photobucket.com/...anchors/IMG_3358.jpg
And a closeup of one of the pieces (the far right piece in the above photo):
http://img78.photobucket.com/...anchors/IMG_3362.jpg
It's a little difficult for me to fully understand where everything is going, but it looks like they have the block slung, one stopper with the webbing going backwards to join up with the sling. A nut that's not even quite in the crack (second picture) connected to a biner, with both the webbing and a cord that goes over the front, is clove hitched to a piece and then over a sharp edge to join the webbing at the power point.
There had to be a better way, right?
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dingus
Jul 5, 2004, 4:24 PM
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Its a freaking top rope anchor OK???? It looks bloody by god good enough to me.
DMT
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mackavus
Jul 5, 2004, 4:33 PM
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I think that the nut placement is not quite ideal, and I also think that the static line is on way too sharp an edge, but other than it looks really strange I dont think it is the worst anchor that I have seen.
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p_grandbois
Jul 5, 2004, 4:35 PM
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Sync, the official troll of any anchor that is not his own. Take some pics of your own anchors sometime(I am sure they are less than perfect)...we all have opinions, you are just trying to start another 14 page epic here.
Spend more time climbing, less time worrying about everyone else. Seems like you are not trying to help here, you are just trying to up your rank.
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sync
Jul 5, 2004, 4:35 PM
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In reply to: Sync, the official troll of any anchor that is not his own. Take some pics of your own anchors sometime(I am sure they are less than perfect)...we all have opinions, you are just trying to start another 14 page epic here. Spend more time climbing, less time worrying about everyone else. Seems like you are not trying to help here, you are just trying to up your rank.
I'd gladly submit photos of my own anchors. I'm sure they're not perfect either.
I'm not trying to start epic threads or "up my rank". I just recall that several people posted on the previous thread that they found these anchor analysis threads useful and educational - even to the point of suggesting a separate forum for such a purpose.
If this is not true, and no one cares to see pictures of anchors I won't post any. It's not that big of a deal.
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jerrygarcia
Jul 5, 2004, 4:46 PM
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In reply to: Spend more time climbing, less time worrying about everyone else. ]
No more need be said.
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wings
Jul 5, 2004, 4:50 PM
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In reply to: I'm not trying to start epic threads or "up my rank". I just recall that several people posted on the previous thread that they found these anchor analysis threads useful and educational - even to the point of suggesting a separate forum for such a purpose. If this is not true, and no one cares to see pictures of anchors I won't post any. It's not that big of a deal.
Personally, I think the anchor threads are quite useful ... in theory. Unfortunately, in practice, they seem to always degenerate into bickering.
It's the internet. That's just the way it is.
On to the critique ...
I do not like the closeup nut placement. I have no confidence that, if the tension on the system were to let up, that the nut would stay where it is (as opposed to slide up).
The biner that is connected to the purple sling (twice) and the blue sling ... looks like you'd get a lot of cross loading (and the purple sling along the spine looks like it would slip).
The nut that doesn't have a closeup ... is that intended purely to create tension on the purple sling? So that the closeup nut won't slide, I guess?
Given what's there, it seems like one could come up with something a bit simpler. Then again, I don't know where this is, and I probably haven't ever been there to boot, so who's to say?
- Seyil
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sync
Jul 5, 2004, 5:24 PM
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In reply to: btw: did we bump into each other? we were the party out leading on berkley and britons. i was belaying my second on berkley while some guys were taking shots of anchors.
Yep, that was me taking the photos. :)
After seeing this one, Doug pointed out yours saying that I should take photos of good anchors as well. I was going to post the photos of yours, but with some of the negative responses I'm getting here, I'll probably not bother to post any more shots of anchors.
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euroford
Jul 5, 2004, 5:24 PM
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well, i don't think this ancher is about to kill anybody.... but then again, i'm just not all that sure about that, i just can't get my head around whats going on with that thing! well, i sure wouldn't place a quite nut like that..... or the whole anchor like that.....
btw: did we bump into each other? we were the party out leading on berkley and britons. i was belaying my second on berkley while some guys were taking shots of anchors.
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euroford
Jul 5, 2004, 5:39 PM
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In reply to: Yep, that was me taking the photos. :) After seeing this one, Doug pointed out yours saying that I should take photos of good anchors as well. I was going to post the photos of yours, but with some of the negative responses I'm getting here, I'll probably not bother to post any more shots of anchors.
nah, these threads are great and i really appreciate that poeple go to the trouble to take the photos and start the threads. with anchors like some of the ones we have seen in these threads and out at the lake i think its great that we are performing an excersice which can only lead to better anchors. not to mention that these threads are fun, just ignore the detractors. i mean jeez, what the heck else are we going to talk about on a rock climbing forum??
this must have been the anchor belonging to the party with the big dog that was howling and barking all day. fido over there was obviously not having as good a time as everybody else; but thats another red-hot thread in the making.....
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squish
Jul 5, 2004, 6:04 PM
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Wow, it's pretty hard to see what the engineering plan was for this anchor.
That block is slung every which way, and I'm quite sure it would hold. The nuts seem superfluous, so the fact that one isn't well placed isn't a worry in itself. I don't know why the sling across the back even needs to be anchored into the crack like that. (?)
It does shout "gumby," but it looks safe. I wouldn't have set it up that way either, but a bit of overkill never killed anyone.
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jt512
Jul 5, 2004, 6:17 PM
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It must have taken half the day to rig this anchor. With all that webbing and cordage available, I wonder if they could have just slung the boulder with two independent slings and been done with it -- hard to say from the photos.
The triaxial loading on the biner is a classic no-no. If for some reason it was necessary, I'd have at least doubled the biner.
-Jay
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curt
Jul 5, 2004, 6:32 PM
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In reply to: It must have taken half the day to rig this anchor. With all that webbing and cordage available, I wonder if they could have just slung the boulder with two independent slings and been done with it -- hard to say from the photos. The triaxial loading on the biner is a classic no-no. If for some reason it was necessary, I'd have at least doubled the biner. -Jay
I'm with Jay. They clearly had plenty of cord and webbing, so why not just sling the boulder with two independent slings? That would eliminate the triaxial loaded biner and the cord running over the sharp edge, which are the two things that bother me a bit about this set-up.
Curt
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corpse
Jul 5, 2004, 6:45 PM
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I can't see the pics - I'll try again :(
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rrrADAM
Jul 5, 2004, 7:02 PM
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In reply to: Started climbing in June 2003. So far just top-roping at Devil's Lake with the UW Hoofers. I wish I could climb more often than I do.
Congrats on finishing your first year climbing. Notice you only top-rope, so it would be wise to get some experience leading Trad prior to critiquing placements my friend. The most optimal placements are noty always availible in real life, on real rock, hence many times climbers include all the redundancy. A couple marginal pieces properly placed and equalized may ]equal one great piece at times.
Having fallen more than 40 feet on some single small pieces gives me lots of confidence on redundant top rope anchors where no great forcve is applied. This doesn't say I don't strive for bomp-proof, as most of my anchors are, but I also realize that one needs only protect the situation at hand: Top Rope, Lead fall over a ledge/clean/overhung/pendulum, for the 2nd, belay anchor, rappel, etc... All have different requirements. :wink:
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yorb
Jul 5, 2004, 7:06 PM
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not to mention the carabiner hooked into the nut on the blue sling, it's flat against the edge of the rock
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 5, 2004, 7:19 PM
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In reply to: Congrats on finishing your first year climbing. Notice you only top-rope, so it would be wise to get some experience leading Trad prior to critiquing placements my friend.
What is up with everyone picking on Sync?
The anchor picture that he chose to share in this thread is a great example of how not to build an anchor. The fact that he was able to recognize that after only climbing for a year speaks well for him.
It should also be noted that he has barely even offered an opinion on any of these anchors. Completely proper, given his level of experience.
You, on the other hand, seem to have a problem with the poster, and you're fine with the anchor???
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dredsovrn
Jul 5, 2004, 8:59 PM
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Looks pretty good to me. Way too gear intensive, but it looks like a decent TR anchor. Maybe hard to call from the pic, but I think people are beginning to get a little retarded with this "analyze this anchor" BS.
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dredsovrn
Jul 5, 2004, 9:45 PM
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[quote="alpnclmbr1
It should also be noted that he has barely even offered an opinion on any of these anchors.
Not really true.
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 5, 2004, 10:30 PM
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Based on what I can actually see:
Stopper 1 (climbers L)
Stopper 2 (climbers R)
Stopper 3 (mid cord)
Cord
Blue runner (climber R)
Purple runner (climbers L)
Purple runner (part 2) either part of the purple or a separate piece, can’t tell
=-=-=--=-
Double biner junction joining the purple sling to the blue. Basically making one non-redundant sling out of two long slings. If one fails they both fail.
Then they try to fix it:
By backing it up with a cord over a sharp edge. Only reason I can think of to run the cord right over the edge, is to lift the anchor biners off the rock to make the TR run smoother. With a bomb anchor this may have been a nice touch. As it is it is a wasted back up.
Then they mickey mouse a couple of stoppers to try and fix a poor set up. (What’s up with the overhands on a bight with a tail?? Ie purple mess)
Stopper 1 supports the cord and the purple sling attached to it backs up anchoring the blue sling.
Stopper 2 is to back up the blue sling in terms of anchoring the purple sling.
Gumbie anchor by someone that should probably know better. (ie trying to be fancy at the same time as being lame.)
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sync
Jul 5, 2004, 10:33 PM
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In reply to: Congrats on finishing your first year climbing.
Thanks. I am totally hooked and enjoy climbing dearly. I am finally figuring out a lot the mental aspects of the sport and feel like I have been making good improvements in the last few months.
In reply to: Notice you only top-rope, so it would be wise to get some experience leading Trad prior to critiquing placements my friend.
I definitely appreciate that leading trad will help greatly in my ability to assess placements, though I don't feel that I need to wait until then to critique. The act of analyzing and critiquing these placements will help me learn about anchors and the best ways to place them. Honestly, I find the best thing I've been doing towards that end is talking to and working with one of the more experienced members in our group. Watching him set anchors and having him watch over the ones I set.
In reply to: The most optimal placements are noty always availible in real life, on real rock, hence many times climbers include all the redundancy. A couple marginal pieces properly placed and equalized may equal one great piece at times.
And I can certainly appreciate that. Again, that's why I feel that it is best to look at and to place anchors in the greatest variety of locations.
In reply to: Having fallen more than 40 feet on some single small pieces gives me lots of confidence on redundant top rope anchors where no great forcve is applied. This doesn't say I don't strive for bomp-proof, as most of my anchors are, but I also realize that one needs only protect the situation at hand: Top Rope, Lead fall over a ledge/clean/overhung/pendulum, for the 2nd, belay anchor, rappel, etc... All have different requirements. :wink:
Yes, and I hope that, as I continue to climb, I will eventually learn all of that. But, for now, I'm starting with what I've got before me. Setting toprope anchors at Devil's Lake.
I have found it very interesting to read people's responses to these setups. There are things that people have mentioned that I hadn't thought of and that aren't discussed in books. Thanks for all the input.
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petsfed
Jul 5, 2004, 11:52 PM
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Were I setting the anchor, this is what I would've done:
Slung the block, placed a large cam/hex/gopher/etc in the large crack on the right, and placed a nut somewhere on the left.
As it stands, they appear to have slung the block, then placed a nut in it, which would turn out very badly if that was a loose block. Two points gone in one fell swoop. Secondarily, having line run over sharp edges like that is an accident waiting to happen. Either pad them (so you don't sever them in a larger -eg belayer error- fall) or move them so its not an issue.
That's my feeling on it.
See, and I think this whole "examine my anchor" trend is a natural extension of John Long's books. There are the text book anchors in FOTH, and the emphatically bad anchors in FOTH, but there's no in between. And Largo can't examine every single anchor for you, and each one is different.
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dontjinxme
Jul 6, 2004, 12:55 AM
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I enjoy the examining the pictures. This one somewhat relates to anchor problem myself and my climbing partner had a few weeks back. We had to set T.R. anchor around boulders and such.
My question is, do these people know that you are taking pictures of their anchors. I could care less, unless I opened one of your posts and said "Ah heck......thats my anchor!!" Thats when my hypocritical side would come out and start hollering about privacy rights and such.
Again, I appreciate the pictures, they are something I look forward to when I come to this site.
JINX
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squish
Jul 6, 2004, 12:57 AM
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In reply to: See, and I think this whole "examine my anchor" trend is a natural extension of John Long's books. There are the text book anchors in FOTH, and the emphatically bad anchors in FOTH, but there's no in between. And Largo can't examine every single anchor for you, and each one is different.
I agree. Doctor Largo can only compile a small cross-section of good versus bad anchors into his books, and they're often contrived examples in order to illustrate a specific lesson. They're rarely going to show the true, real-world examples of human ingenuity that we can dig up here.
I think these discussions can be very instructive as long as they don't get so nitpicky that we lose sight of the big picture. Keep it simple, please:
Spot the problem areas and voice your concerns. Is the anchor good enough for its stated purpose? What might you have done instead?
That's all that JL had done in his books, and that's all that's really needed. Beyond that, it's all speculation and guesswork anyway, given the limited information we get from a couple low-resolution photos.
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coylec
Jul 6, 2004, 1:20 AM
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In reply to: My question is, do these people know that you are taking pictures of their anchors. I could care less, unless I opened one of your posts and said "Ah heck......thats my anchor!!" Thats when my hypocritical side would come out and start hollering about privacy rights and such.
Depends on where you are. Most likely, if you are on federally owned forest/wilderness/etal, you're going to be considered "out in public." Photos of you or your creations in public belong to the person taking the picture. Since you are in public, there is no expectation of privacy. If its private land, the owner has the right to determine whether or not an area is "public" in terms of that. That's why you can't take photos in a mall or porn shop, but you can take pictures of people going into malls (or pornshops).
Another point is that it would be civil matter, and the plaintiff would have to demonstrate harm. So a bunch of keyboardcowboys (and cowgirls) call your anchor unsafe and lame ... what harm have you suffered that is quantifiable into dollar bills?
coylec
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