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roughster
Jul 20, 2004, 8:16 AM
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I see one most likely ending to this scenario:
Land Managers/owners stepping in and most likely ending access to the crag in general.
Dane what are hoping to accomplish with this? What did you think would be the resolution with the way your attitude is seeping out of your post?
I agree from some of your pics that dialogue should happen (glue on holds and the sharpie specifically), however, mindlessly whipping people into a frenzy for your own personal satisfaction is not doing the local climbing community any favors. Especially considering the counter "we will rebolt" has been layed down by the opposing side. Is a bolt war going to make Dishman better? And next time when it is 5" glue ins? And then when it is another set? And when you knock off the glue on holds and they drill a pocket, and you fill it, and they re-chip it? You know who will suffer the most? The rock.
You probably asking why I give a crap coming from Vacaville, CA? My brother just moved to Spokane and actually I own the Bland guidebook and was thinking Dishman looked like a great crag to get some routes in while there (well that along with Deep Creek :) )
Anyways. I say drop the chip off your shoulder. Get Marty and Grady and go grab a beer together before the crowbar and drills start flying. I am sure you guys can work it out before having a public pissing match on the rock where no one wins.
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daneburns
Jul 20, 2004, 8:57 AM
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Last I checked the only chipping going on was at the rock.
I figure anyone that pulls this kind of stunt deserves to have their name tagged to the end result. My only goal is to repair what has been done at Dishman and to clean the place up so that I can enjoy climbing there again. It is that simple. If that takes getting the locals whipped into a frenzy then I am all for it.
Marty is actually willing to look at other alternatives, as am I. Posting these pictures hasn't been the first response. Before you start pointing fingers best to do a bit more checking on what is happening locally and read your Bland guide to see who is involved and why.
The one point you made is obvious. If the land owner gets a good look at the lastest results of climbers on his land I suspect they will indeed close an area that has been available to climbing for over 20 years.
Better to be proactive and involved than to let an area be labled off limits from climber's abuse. The more climbers that see what has happened at Dishman and know who is responsible, the better.
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roughster
Jul 20, 2004, 9:04 AM
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In reply to: Last I checked the only chipping going on was at the rock. I figure anyone that pulls this kind of stunt deserves to have their name tagged to the end result. My only goal is to repair what has been done at Dishman and to clean the place up so that I can enjoy climbing there again. It is that simple. If that takes getting the locals whipped into a frenzy then I am all for it. Marty is actually willing to look at other alternatives, as am I. Posting these pictures hasn't been the first response. Before you start pointing fingers best to do a bit more checking on what is happening locally and read your Bland guide to see who is involved and why. The one point you made is obvious. If the land owner gets a good look at the lastest results of climbers on his land I suspect they will indeed close an area that has been available to climbing for over 20 years. Better to be proactive and involved than to let an area be labled off limits from climber's abuse. The more climbers that see what has happened at Dishman and know who is responsible, the better.
I guess my point, which seems to be missed, is this could have been handled outside of you bringing this amount of attention to the area/issue in the 1st place. Sounds like you already had dialogue w/Marty and started with Grady. What then exactly is the purpose of this thread other than to just draw more attention to it and stir up crap?
It is the attention to the fact that climbers do not agree on how the rock is being utilized and the resultant actions from both parties that will shut it down. I am not dissagreeing that something should happen, but rather that the best course of action isn't running around to every BBS in site and posting on it when it sounds like discussions are already taking place "offline" about it.
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daneburns
Jul 20, 2004, 9:12 AM
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Point taken.
The issue and why this crap is public is because it would never be "fixed" if it were not brought to the public's attention.
My first attempts to broach the subject, "that things had gone too far at Dishman", brought a general rebuff from all involved, basically saying "go fuck yourself, we'll do what we want".
Lot of ways I could have handled it. At this point I think public exposure is well deserved. If that ends up with the area closed to climbing, it isn't going to be any worse than what has been done by a few who have failed to think their actions through. Since we are working with the land owner I doubt loss of access will be the end result but it is possible.
Peer pressure can have amazing results. Beats some of the past options that have been used in similar situations.
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roughster
Jul 20, 2004, 9:42 AM
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It sounds like you are doing most things right Dane, but I just don't see the value in contunally posting about the issue until you hit further roadblocks. It looks like the Cascadeclimbers thread addressed alot of that issue and then it moved to INW where even Grady got involved. That, IMO should have been enough.
It is your right to post about, but I just warning about creating a monster. The problem with doing so is that often that monster gets out of control and does more damage than even what the original creator wanted.
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colqueerio
Jul 20, 2004, 2:05 PM
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By all appearances, the monster has already been created. What a fucking shame.
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herm
Jul 20, 2004, 2:14 PM
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Dane! Hope you are well these daze!
Dishman used to be "the best rock in Spokane" back in the 80's, and we did these routes on a few sparse bolts and on trad gear. Then a few good sport routes went in, and then access issues.
I hate seeing Spokane's historical "hardman crag" turning into a "who cares?" sort of dump. It would be nice to see it treated as a resource with historical, as well as recreational, significance.....
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daneburns
Jul 21, 2004, 6:08 AM
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Herm! Damn, good to hear from you :)
I had heard rumors that you were still alive and kicking.
Ya, things have changed and as you can see not for the better. Hopefully we cna slow the damage and get a cleanup done. May be buy the place down the road like the County/and all, did at Minne.
I suspect it will all end up for the better when it is all done but hard to let this kind of nonsense stand.
I had half expected Kurt Shannon to pop up on this thread.
Stay well my friend!
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timstich
Jul 21, 2004, 12:23 PM
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Dane,
Thanks for posting the pictures. I have seen a route like that before in Austin, but it was put up in the embryonic, know-nothing years before many gyms existed as far as I know. And the person that put it up has long since repented I am fairly certain. What's incredible is that someone would do this now. What an embarassment.
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daneburns
Jul 22, 2004, 10:35 PM
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Dishman Rocks Resource Group has scheduled a meeting room on Tuesday August 24, 7PM upstairs at the Spokane REI, 1125 N Monroe St
Spokane, WA 99201 (509) 328-9900
Anyone interested in the Dishman Natural Area or climbing there is encouraged to attend.
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curt
Jul 22, 2004, 11:44 PM
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In reply to: Herm! Damn, good to hear from you :) I had heard rumors that you were still alive and kicking. Ya, things have changed and as you can see not for the better. Hopefully we cna slow the damage and get a cleanup done. May be buy the place down the road like the County/and all, did at Minne. I suspect it will all end up for the better when it is all done but hard to let this kind of nonsense stand. I had half expected Kurt Shannon to pop up on this thread. Stay well my friend!
Be careful what you ask for.
Curt
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daneburns
Jul 23, 2004, 6:50 AM
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Curt, thanks for the info offline. Still driving Vettes?
Cheers,
Dane
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curt
Jul 23, 2004, 5:50 PM
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In reply to: Curt, thanks for the info offline. Still driving Vettes? Cheers, Dane
No. I'm well past my mid-life crisis years now and on my way to old age and perhaps even respectability. By the way, good luck with cleaning up that mess. I can't believe in this day and age that anyone, anywhere would go and chip holds on natural rock--particularly at an area where climbing had been going on for years. And then bolting on rocks and plastic holds? Don't even get me started.
Curt
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curt
Jul 23, 2004, 5:51 PM
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In reply to: Curt, thanks for the info offline. Still driving Vettes? Cheers, Dane
No. I'm well past my mid-life crisis years now and on my way to old age and perhaps even respectability. By the way, good luck with cleaning up that mess. I can't believe in this day and age that anyone, anywhere would go and chip holds on natural rock--particularly at an area where climbing had been going on for years. And then bolting on rocks and plastic holds? Don't even get me started.
Curt
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beesty511
Jul 23, 2004, 6:06 PM
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In reply to: I see one most likely ending to this scenario: Land Managers/owners stepping in and most likely ending access to the crag in general.
And, why is that always considered a bad thing. In this case, and in others, I consider it the best result. I don't support keeping access open at all costs--that's too narrow minded and self serving. The climbers are ruining the rock and the area, and they should be kicked out.
If I was dane, I would go to the land manager myself and petition to have the area shut off to climbers until a new generation of climbers comes along with better ethics. Of course, if it was my climbing area, I would also ask that the land manager appoint me as a "river keeper" of the crag, so that I could climb there with my friends, and keep watch over the area to make sure no harm came to it. I think if all crags had "river keepers" made up of local climbers, they would be in much better shape, and it would help land managers straining under limited budgets.
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