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aimeerose
Aug 7, 2004, 11:35 PM
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I've just been climbing at Maple Canyon where there seems to be a rash of downgrading this summer. I have to say I think this is pretty lame, especially with the border grades (11a, 12a, 13a, etc.) First of, if we shouldn't care about grades, then why bother downgrading (especially for one or two letter grades). Secondly, locals shouldn't downgrade- familiarity makes routes seem easier. Thirdly, if a route is already published at a grade and it's not a blinding misprint, then just let it be, especially if it's a border grade. Why rain on someone's parade when they just got their first 12a (like Zoaster Toaster- so many people work so hard on that route and it's their first 12, it's sad to downgrade it.) Anyways, I just hope the authors of the new guidebook for Maple take that into consideration when they finally get the new book out.
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organic
Aug 7, 2004, 11:49 PM
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In reply to: I've just been climbing at Maple Canyon where there seems to be a rash of downgrading this summer. I have to say I think this is pretty lame, especially with the border grades (11a, 12a, 13a, etc.) First of, if we shouldn't care about grades, then why bother downgrading (especially for one or two letter grades). Secondly, locals shouldn't downgrade- familiarity makes routes seem easier. Thirdly, if a route is already published at a grade and it's not a blinding misprint, then just let it be, especially if it's a border grade. Why rain on someone's parade when they just got their first 12a (like Zoaster Toaster- so many people work so hard on that route and it's their first 12, it's sad to downgrade it.) Anyways, I just hope the authors of the new guidebook for Maple take that into consideration when they finally get the new book out.
Sorry to hear about that, but personally I would rather climb a sandbagged route than a half-bagged route. Why would you be mad? Seems pride might be a factor here. We all have our subjective route grades in our heads anyway. If you redpoint an 11d why is that so bad? and two letter grades can be a HUGE difference@! Do you think they are doing this just to spite people?
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muncher
Aug 7, 2004, 11:51 PM
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Some good points but sometimes you just have to be honest about the grades. It is hardly an exact science but sometimes there is a reason for a particular route being many peoples first at the grade, i.e. it is soft. I guess it shouldn't really matter and you start splitting hairs when talking 11D, 12A etc but sometimes you just have to put the ego aside and accept the real grade of a climb. I guess it is a bit strange on very established routes though, it shouldn't take that long for people to agree to a consensus grade on a popular route.
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pushsendnorcal
Aug 8, 2004, 1:18 AM
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I just spent two weeks in maple and there are several reasons for changing (usually downgrading) the grades of several routes
(a)- because of the large amount of foothold possibilities, new and easier ways of doing routes are coming to light
(b)- endurance routes, like those in the pipedream cave, are always being downgraded because endurance routes are about keeping it together. Climbers that are excellent endurance climbers will realize that there are no hard moves on most of those climbs and can deal with the pump factor. So far the hardest set of moves is around V6.
(c)- because of the nature of the steeper rock, knee bars are being found all the time. During my stay I was able to find two knee bars allowing no hand rests, one on the shagger and the other on the feast
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 8, 2004, 1:27 AM
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So what you are really saying is that the climbers are getting better, not that the climbs are getting easier?
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 8, 2004, 2:43 AM
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There is at least a two letter grade difference between the old school crag Box canyon and the minimum. Everyone has always known that the minimum has relatively soft grades.
One person put up and graded most of the routes at the minumum. He had been criticized for undergrading routes in the past, so he went the opposite direction with the grades for this crag.
Then comes the guidebook author, a local 5.10 climber who didn’t have any basis for evaluating the harder routes grades.
For what it is worth, if you can climb zoaster toaster, you can climb 12- at the potrero, red river, el rito, and maybe enchanted tower.
How hard an 11d is compared to a 12a is going to depend way more on the individuals strengths and weaknesses then any number the guidebooks decide to assign to it.
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ccharles
Aug 8, 2004, 4:25 AM
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I think downgrading is appropriate for the climbs on the minimum wall, there are a lot that are really soft. I did a few 12bs there on the right side of the cliff, and they felt more like 11c.
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superfox
Aug 8, 2004, 4:35 AM
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It's way better to climb regularly at a sandbagged area than a soft area, because then when you go somewhere else you climb "really well", even though you are technically the same, it's a great ego booster. If you're regularly sending 12s at your home crag and then flail on 11s somewhere else, it sucks. Plus, when you go somewhere else, you can laugh about their grades and how soft they are.
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therealdeal
Aug 9, 2004, 9:29 PM
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We need to downgrade the routes so these discussions will no longer occur...
if i have to go to rifle again and listen to my friends there slag all day on the soft routes at maple, and how we slc'ers pretend we know how to climb, i'm gonna puke...
but seriously, Rifle is an endurance area, and i don't know too many people claiming that the routes there are soft.
Aimee...you climb at Jack's alot don't you?
let's face it...most of the routes at maple, with the current guidebook grades, are very soft.
just don't go to the compound, b/c the bubble will be burst!
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aimeerose
Aug 10, 2004, 3:29 PM
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I climb at Jacks a lot, but I also climb in Red Rocks a lot. I think the 12s at Maple are comprable to those I've been on in Vegas. Zoaster feels just as hard as Fear and Loathing at the Wall of Confustion. I think the grades in the box are similar to those at Minimum. It just depends on what your strengths are. I'm more of a power climber than an endurance climber, so those at the Minimum are harder for me. I just talked to a guy at Maple who thought Zoaster was easy, but took many tries to get Le Spunk. I was opposite. I onsighted Le Spunk, but took a couple days to get Zoaster (and no, it wasn't my first 12a- that was Crimp Chimp and the Dungeon in Los Alamos).
(This post was edited by aimeerose on Nov 25, 2008, 6:59 PM)
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fredrogers
Aug 10, 2004, 4:06 PM
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I agree with you a bit Aimee. I think it's bad form to loudly spray at the cliff about a soft grade and not think you might be hurting the feelings of some people present. Grades shouldn't matter but they often do matter to many people. But it is a widely held opinion, by locals and out-of-towners, that Minimum Crag has downy-soft grades. I thought so when I climbed there, but forgot about it in about 20 seconds when I realized the climbing was really fun. It's one of the best walls at Maple, but I'd hate to use those grades as a measuring stick of my fitness.
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robmcc
Aug 10, 2004, 5:23 PM
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I'd like to see routes correctly graded without regard for anyone's ego. If a 12a is really a lot more like a 11d (neither of which I can climb, so get your grain of salt out), it's an 11d. I don't really care about the published grade other than as a general indicator if I should be on it. If it's rated significantly higher than I can climb, I won't bother. Otherwise, I'm willing to try and then *I* assign it a grade. No one cares about that grade other than me, and I'm fine with that.
Rob
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aimeerose
Aug 10, 2004, 5:57 PM
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In reply to: loudly spray at the cliff about a soft grade
Tell me about it! There's this one woman who's a local at Maple and I won't mention her name (cause I don't know it), but she is LOUD. And she sprays about stuff she can't even climb! She was at the Minimum one day when my friend was working Space Lords and she was spraying about how it's like 11b now, but when she did it, 3 years ago, it was much harder. How funny is that. We ran into her at the pipeline and she was climbing the 5.7s and the 5.9 at the Engagement alcove with a bunch of newbies (which is nice, don't get me wrong). When they left and walked by the Pipeline, her friends asked her what the routes were there and she said, "I don't know, but they're probably not that hard. They're really overhanging, but there's lots of holds on them." How funny is that! She was soooo loud too. We could hear every word she was saying really clearly while we were in the Pipeline and they were at the alcove.
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screamer
Aug 10, 2004, 7:00 PM
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Ascent of Dang Awesome
by aimeerose
View all ascents by aimeerose
Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2003
Location: Ephraim, Utah - View all ascents
Area: Maple Canyon - View all ascents
Section: Pipe Dream Cave - View all ascents
Grade: 5.10c (6b)
Level: Onsight
Witnessed by:
Comments: Glad somebody downgraded this one. It's really fun, but no way it's 11a
Hey that was my first 11a :lol:
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therealdeal
Aug 10, 2004, 7:35 PM
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Nice screamer!
I totally agree...it is bad form to spray...and not consider another climbers feelings.
The fact remains, however, that many of the routes in Maple are very soft and a true concensus on grades would make it a much better crag...if only by limiting this exact type of discussion.
Also, I don't see folks lining up under Loser (in the Box) trying to climb it for their first 13a, and this is b/c the route is correctly graded...no one will succeed on the route unless they are capable of climbing 13a (or b)
However, Rucksack (Pipedream) sees a non stop succession of climbers attempting it...and although it is a fine route, it is not 13a and it is hardly the quality of Loser, it carries the grade that people desire...if it was correctly rated 12c/d, probably no one would bother walking up there...
Just a Little Something (12b/13a) at the Minimum is the same way....
It is also bad form to spray about your hardest send...escpecially when you know deep down that you have not achieved the "milestone" you are spraying about.
Thankfully the Maple season is nearly over and we can put this discussion to bed for another year...
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jt512
Aug 10, 2004, 7:38 PM
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In reply to: First of, if we shouldn't care about grades, then why bother downgrading (especially for one or two letter grades).
Equally: if we shouldn't care about grades why object to downgrading.
In reply to: Why rain on someone's parade when they just got their first 12a (like Zoaster Toaster- so many people work so hard on that route and it's their first 12, it's sad to downgrade it.)
When breaking into a new grade, many climbers pick a route that they know perfectly well is easy for the grade, just to bag the number. They should know that there is a chance that such a route will get downgraded. After they become solid at the new number grade they won't care if one of their earlier routes gets downgraded.
-Jay
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therealdeal
Aug 10, 2004, 7:44 PM
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Exactly! My first xxG was down rated almost immediately...so Damnit! I had to go find another harder xxG that would not get downrated...that is one of the beautiful things about the sport...the glow never lasts.
Its always on to the next one...maybe a xxH!
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aimeerose
Aug 10, 2004, 7:50 PM
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In reply to: but seriously, Rifle is an endurance area, and i don't know too many people claiming that the routes there are soft
of course the grades aren't soft at Rifle! They just keep getting harder and harder cause the routes get greasier and greasier.
And yes, I do climb at Jacks a lot and even though Jack's is notoriously soft, there's still plenty of routes there that live up to the grade.
Also, I think the Compound is just a reaction to people calling Maple soft (the same thing is happening in Jacks.) People just go way off to the other side because their egos are bruised. There's some new 11s at Jacks that are way sandbagged and that's what I heard about the Compound too- very sandbagged! It's just reactionary.
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tavs
Aug 10, 2004, 7:52 PM
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Ahh yes, the topic of the season for Utah sport climbers. We all know grading is an inexact science, and so any attempts to accurately discern whether Route A is 11d or 12a are difficult.
The problem with Maple, in particular, is that many of the routes are endurance fests with few or no moves at their graded level. How do you grade an endurance route? That said, I agree with those who have noted the general softness of certain crags at Maple. There is NO WAY there is only one letter grade difference between Brown Hole in Box and Zoaster (or even Le Spunk for that matter). Brown Hole is also endurancy, being fairly long and not letting up throughout. I haven't redpointed any of these, but I've been on them all and I can say for sure, I've got no chance in hell of doing Brown Hole anytime this season but Le Spunk should go next trip.
I'm no enduro-beast, endurance is my uber-weakness. But I also think its easier to gain than power, and I think routes shouldn't just be graded based on their endurance factor.
I do agree with Aimeerose, however, that there's a problem with full-on locals downgrading routes that they've done 100 times and have so wired they could probably send them blindfolded with a 50 pound pack on.
Just some thoughts I've had listening to this debate rage over the last few months.
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aimeerose
Aug 10, 2004, 7:58 PM
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In reply to: Just a Little Something (12b/13a) at the Minimum is the same way....
There's no way that's 12b and you're just trying to make yourself look cool by saying that. Sad, sad...
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photon
Aug 10, 2004, 8:06 PM
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The only absolute thing about ratings are that they are subjective, my only concern about ratings are that they are consistent at any given area and hopefully close to other areas I've been to be a couple of letter grades or so.
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therealdeal
Aug 10, 2004, 8:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Just a Little Something (12b/13a) at the Minimum is the same way.... There's no way that's 12b and you're just trying to make yourself look cool by saying that. Sad, sad...
i don't think anyone, including Mr. Boyle, thinks that route is 13a...perhaps 12b was overly emphatic... I'll give it 12c. However it is a very good route!
me look cool, impossible!
I'm not attempting to slight you in any way Aimee...I'm just offering the POV of someone who has been around the block alittle...maybe more than alittle
and the grades at the compound are simply correct...
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screamer
Aug 10, 2004, 8:49 PM
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In reply to: I totally agree...it is bad form to spray...and not consider another climbers feelings. The fact remains, however, that many of the routes in Maple are very soft and a true concensus on grades would make it a much better crag...if only by limiting this exact type of discussion. It is also bad form to spray about your hardest send...escpecially when you know deep down that you have not achieved the "milestone" you are spraying about.
I agree fully.
In reply to: Thankfully the Maple season is nearly over and we can put this discussion to bed for another year...
No more hiking to the Pipe Dream, Yeah...Billboard and Hideaway hmm...Soon
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aimeerose
Aug 10, 2004, 8:50 PM
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I have yet to get to the Compound, but a friend of mine who has also been around quite a bit thought the grades were a bit stiff there (his local crag is Rumney). I'll have to check it out myself.
Since grades truely are subjective, I have to believe that mental state has a lot to do with how hard a route feels as well. If you are on a route believing it to be 13a and it's your first one, all that pressure is going to make it feel that hard (assuming it's within a letter grade or 2). So, we might as well leave the grades as they are published, unless it's a blinding oversight (example: there's a 13a at Jacks that is more like 12a/b- really, I got it in 4 tries. It must be some kind of misprint.)
Anyways, back to the point that if grades are subjective anyways, and they don't really matter, then why waste all the energy to downgrade something one or two letters.
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screamer
Aug 10, 2004, 9:45 PM
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i think its really hard to get a grade correct head on, due to different people having different strengths and weaknesses. They are averages with error margins. If we can fine tune, why not widdle it down or up to what the community feels is there best guess...plus or minus
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