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euroford
Aug 11, 2004, 4:21 PM
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why don't you poeple stop leaving your draws everywhere.
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photon
Aug 11, 2004, 4:31 PM
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Yeahhhhhhh, as long as your stick clip would reach the anchors you might be able to clean them. These threads are quite telling more of a filter really. In the last 10 years I"ve never met anyone at a sport climbing area that condones draw removal of this nature. That is why we really don't need to get to worked up about this. The dorks on this thread spewing about lycra and big muscles and haul bags under el cap, will never actually visit maple and have virtually 0 influence in this matter outside the internet, but it is cute to watch you pretend though. The other folks who actually have a say in this (for they can be found climbing at crags like Maple working routes) and 99% of everyone else who does the same agree that taking draws down that aren't yours is thievery!
the only exception would be draws and biners that are no longer safe to climb on.
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fredrogers
Aug 11, 2004, 4:42 PM
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It boils down to this:
-in-situ draws are not booty. You are more than welcome to climb on them but not steal them.
-people who leave in-situ draws should realize that they are leaving $100-$300 worth of gear on a route. Unscrupulous people (climbers or non-climbers) may be tempted to steal your gear.
-Removing the first 1 or 2 draws may be enough to discourage their stealing.
-Some newbies are completely clueless and may actually think your gear is fair game to take. They have learned that found gear on trad climbs is considered "booty" and have guessed that the same is true on sport climbs. Try to educate them.
-Leaving draws in-situ for days or weeks is acceptable at most, but not all sport areas. Check with locals.
-Leaving draws in-situ for months or years is usually accepted BUT it shouldn't be. I've seen multiple examples of nylon draws breaking because they were decrepit.
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rocdaug
Aug 11, 2004, 4:49 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Now, I have not been climbing for decades like some, so perhaps my opinion will change with time... I doubt it though. I would not steal the draws, I'd clean them and leave them at the base of the climb... someone else can steal them. :shock: If you ever start climbing hard, I guarantee your opinion will change.
That's exactly what others have said. By the way... What is "hard"?
Are you saying that is a route is hard it's ok to litter the route with "project draws". So... if a popular 5.10- is "hard" for someone, it's ok to leave "project draws" on it? ...and I do climb hard. I climb as hard as I can, and the climbs I climb are getting harder too.
rd
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darth_gaydar
Aug 11, 2004, 4:51 PM
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In reply to: By the way... What is "hard"? rd
5.12 and up. Look at the demographics.
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fracture
Aug 11, 2004, 4:55 PM
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In reply to: why don't you poeple stop leaving your draws everywhere.
Silly trad. :roll:
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b_fost
Aug 11, 2004, 4:59 PM
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taking 'abandoned' draws depends on local ethics.
that being said, i would never leave my draws on a climb longer than when i am working on it in one day.
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asandh
Aug 11, 2004, 5:53 PM
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:)
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wormly81
Aug 11, 2004, 5:59 PM
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Ah, another forum with the sole purpose of letting sportclimbers spray about how hard they climb.
In reply to: joeshmoesportclimber says: I cant believe it. I left a couple hundred bucks worth of gear out in the woods last night and someone tried to take it. What has this world come to?!? If I wasn't climbing (insert spray grades here) I wouldn't need to leave them there! |
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photon
Aug 11, 2004, 6:27 PM
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actually for the most part it is for wanna be sport climbers to spray about stuff they really have no idea about, like climbing at sport crags and how people behave there.
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kalcario
Aug 11, 2004, 6:41 PM
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*ya ya ya ... if you're talking about leading a 120 ft of 5.12 OW carrying 30 lbs of gear, maybe that's hard. (and by the way, OW climbers don't whine about having to carry a draw or two)*
don't you off width crack-humper guys just take one big cam and push it above your head so you're on tr the whole time?
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brianinslc
Aug 11, 2004, 6:43 PM
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In reply to: As far as 20 draws, or the 32 someone else mentioned .... are the bolts 3 feet apart or are these routes 300 feet long ? I call myself a weenie when I put my bolts 7 feet apart. Ok ok ok I admit I'm not the "hard core" sport climber like some of these "BOLD" guys, but I don't whine about hard work. I've carried 15 or more draws lots of times and they felt light as a feather compared to a full trad or aid rack ...... the big issue is really .... hard work .... who's doin' it and who's not ....
Pretty typical that the super steep routes at Maple are put up on lead, drilling whilst hanging (or standing on a board...yikes) from the previous bolt. Also, given the loose nature of some of the climbing at Maple, most folks take all the clips they can get.
Leaving draws are abandoned property. Folks need to remember that not everyone who visits especially Maple Canyon is a climber. Seeing an entire wall festooned with draws might could (Utah speak) draw the ire of a local and/or land manager. I'd say, when in doubt, clean up when you're done as they are a highly visible eyesore. Folks were goin' to the Pipedream area (and the cool Hobbit Hole) a long time before climbers showed up. Low profile is the way to go.
That said, its pretty amazing to watch folks climb that stuff. Yeah, its poor form to steal the draws, but, given that its forest service public land visited by non climbers too, the risk is that climbing will be seen as an eyesore and high impact. The bolt and hangers aren't that visible. 50 draws hangin' in the Pipedream cave sure is. Although, its a rare day when climbers aren't around. Still, its a risk that climbing will be seen as a negative impact to the area because of all the highly visible hardware left behind.
Something to consider anyway. And, draws are pretty hard to rip off if you use a rapide on the end of one of them DMM captive biner draws...(or a frost wire).
Anyhoo...FWIW...
Brian in SLC
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darth_gaydar
Aug 11, 2004, 6:49 PM
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In reply to: darth-gaydar wrote: In reply to: rocdaug wrote: By the way... What is "hard"? rd 5.12 and up. Look at the demographics. ya ya ya ... if you're talking about leading a 120 ft of 5.12 OW carrying 30 lbs of gear, maybe that's hard. (and by the way, OW climbers don't whine about having to carry a draw or two) clipping pre placed draws on 5.12 sport ? hahahaha
Let me know when you wanna get out and hit Creation Of The World I'll wear my pink chaffon.
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nateyoun
Aug 11, 2004, 7:11 PM
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I think the direction of this thread is getting alittle off. I think whenever someone puts draws up, they know there is a small chance of them getting stolen. especially by non climbers that can rappel off the top of the cliff. but when you start hearing about climbers, who know that the gear is up there because the person is working on the route, it gets a little frustrating. It's sad to see that in this day, the first thing someone thinks when they see draws on the wall is "oh sweet, i can take those"..
should i start fearing that if i put my pack down to go to the bathroom, that it'll be gone when i turn around? It's not just climbing.. i was helping a friend with mt. biking, doing a steep uphill, so i put my bike down for a few minutes, and as i was returning to my bike. there was a car parked and someone getting out heading towards my bike. i was honestly 100ft away from it for about a minute..
as for the trad vs sport vs sport who are against fixed draws.. to each his own. but respect each other.. some people have said that it's a pain in the a$$ to clean the draws each time. especially on steep routes.. and the response was that if we dont' want to put in the effort, stay home.. well. most of us are going out to climb.. not to clean..i know that it's part of the game sometimes. but honestly. I like to climb.. not clean..
with trad vs sport... saying that we're complaining about carrying gear.. we've choosen sport climbing because we dont' want to carry that gear.. that's our choice.. i keep saying we, but i'm a trad climber too. i carry big gear for big OW sometimes.. but when i sport climb it's about the moves, about the climbing, and not about the gear at all.
the last thing is to the guy who said they'd take someones draws down off a route and leave them at the bottom... that's crap... what's wrong with you just using them up on the rock..
the scary thing about this thread is i bet a few of you who apposed leaving fixed gear probably have my draws that have been stolen in the past.. if you have any wildcountry or petzl draws that you snatched. please let me know. i'd like to have them back..
oh. and booty on a trad climb.. in my opinion, If i can find who left the gear there, i give it back.. and yes. i've done that before. a few times while trad climbing (including two cams) and a few times sport climbing.
let's just not have steeling be the first thing on our minds.
nate
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slacklinejoe
Aug 11, 2004, 7:18 PM
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Am I the only person that actually puts a note on my gear that I'm leaving for anything more than a few minutes out of my sight?????
I printed up a stack of bright yellow stickers that say "Please leave this gear in place, we'll be back for it soon" and leaves my phone number. Heck the sticker sheets are free from UPS if you get creative on how you get them. I precut a few of them and keep them in my wallet for when I need them. I'm pretty confident that it's saved my gear from being lifted more than once. (Like evac'ing an injured climber back to camp where we had to ditch most of our gear)
To a newbie, its one thing to see shiney gear hanging on rock with no one around and quite another to see gear marked as somthing someone left on purpose and that it's not accidental or intentional littering.
That tiny bit of forethought could save a lot of disagreements and anger/hate against those who might not know better or just lack ethics to believe that the gear is there on purpose. Anything you do to make your gear no longer anonymously lying around would at least further discourage theft.
Disclaimer:
I don't climb nearly hard enough to "project" jack crap. I've also had to stop friends of mine from swiping quickdraws that were left on a climb with no one around.
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sarcat
Aug 11, 2004, 7:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: By the way... What is "hard"? rd 5.12 and up. Look at the demographics.
B.S.!!! So only people who can do 5.12+ can leave project draws?
The issue isn't "can or can't leave draws" it's about thieves stealing. There are enough punkster homies out there looking for ANYTHING to steel. If you leave it around it may be gone regardless of the local crags climbing ethics
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therealdeal
Aug 11, 2004, 7:34 PM
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Nate,
Did someboby take your draws off of Highwater? I was there the other day and was wondering...
Sorry man!
Again, all this pissing and moaning is completely superflous to the core issue:
Are you honest or dishonest? If you are a thief, just admit it...don't try to play the "Trad" card...
I'm no longer much of a trad climber, but have many friends who climb 13+ cracks, etc, and I can tell you not one of them would sanction stealing gear!
Although they do love to make fun of my sport climbing sally ass!
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rocdaug
Aug 11, 2004, 7:37 PM
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In reply to: taking 'abandoned' draws depends on local ethics. that being said, i would never leave my draws on a climb longer than when i am working on it in one day.
:righton:
agreed.
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nateyoun
Aug 11, 2004, 8:06 PM
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no. i took them off highwater. i hadn't been on it for a long time..
i did get my draws stolen off of cross eyed and painless within about 24 hrs of putting them up, but that is my own dumb fault because that area is a high traffic rappelling area. still wrong, but it'd be like walking alone in a dark street in the ghetto of baltimore with gold chains and money coming out of my pocket.. just not a good idea.
as far as draws littering the walls.. come on. most crags that people leave draws on rarely get seen by anyone but climbers.. but beyond that, the draws are the least of our concerns when it comes to crap. i'm not going to open that box. but i know people will want an example... a billion slings around a tree for rapelling. i'm not saying that you support that over stone color painted bolts.. but there are a lot of people out there that hate bolted belay stations on trad climbs.
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darth_gaydar
Aug 11, 2004, 8:16 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: By the way... What is "hard"? rd 5.12 and up. Look at the demographics. B.S.!!! So only people who can do 5.12+ can leave project draws?
You misconstrued my point and took it out of context. My statement was made in reference to people changing their minds when it comes to leaving draws on a sport route with repsect to a routes difficulty and the current standing of labelling something a redpoint, even if the draws were pre-placed. IN THIS CONTEXT, the question was raised: what is considered hard. AND in this context I offered my opinion that most people, considering the number of people that actually do it, would consider 5.12 to be the start of hard climbing in a sport climbing sense. Some would argue a higher grade still, but there seems to be a definitine line between 5.11 and 5.12.
Anyone can leave project draws on anything, but the general consensus is that they rarely get left by regular enthusiastic sport climbers on routes that are less than 5.12. If you feel this statement is incorrect, I suggest that you are displaying a fine degree of ignorance with regards to what really happens at most sport crags.
In general people know that their gear will be biffed when the leave it on Shockley's Ceiling, but most climbers feel that their gear should be safe on Just Do It!.
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markc
Aug 11, 2004, 8:18 PM
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In reply to: If you are a thief, just admit it...
I was trying to resist the urge to post, but this comment is too much. If you're not familiar with the concept, most thieves prefer to remain anonymous. It makes their profession a bit more manageable when people don't realize what they're doing.
No one is saying stealing is the right thing to do, but some people find it easier than working for something. If you're the trusting sort, you may end up paying (literally) for your faith in humanity. If you feel the reward justifies the risk, have at. Otherwise, remove your property when you can't keep an eye on it.
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asandh
Aug 11, 2004, 8:47 PM
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:)
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elron
Aug 11, 2004, 8:47 PM
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no question, the people were wrong to be stealing draws. but, why leave them in the first place? especially for more than an hour? What if a party comes up and wants to onsight or redpoint the route, and wouldn't be satisfied with a "pinkpoint" (is this term still in use?). is it up to them to rap the route, clean the draws, then replace them all? How is this different from leaving a TR set up on a classic climb for long periods? Argh, why bother... if anyone finds my gear on a route its either becuse its stuck or I had to bail... feel free to booty it
Kevin
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euroford
Aug 11, 2004, 8:59 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: why don't you poeple stop leaving your draws everywhere. Silly trad. :roll:
i represent that comment! 8^)
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