While it is not possible to be "all-knowing" it certainly is possible to avoid the situations and circumstances that Dan mentioned in his original post. (i.e avoiding bad rock, not climbing below other people, not pulling your rap rope while standing directly below, etc., etc.) And if you do these things, you will most assuredly be much safer than by merely strapping on a helmet. I don't even see how this is debatable.

Curt

IT's not debatabale. Who is debating that is is good to tape precautions and be careful and avoid the bad situations that you can avoid?

But the drift of the thread had headed to a notion that any bad situation can be avoided, and that is not true. Even if it were true that every bad situation could be avoided, experienced climbers obviously do not avoid every bad situation, just read Accidents in NAM for proof. Even good climbers, safe climbers, screw up.

In your last post, you were doing great til you said that a helmet will only provide marginal safety if you take all the other precautions. I just don't believe that.

To me, the helmet provides no safety until you are in the crap situation, then, it provides a huge safety bonus. Your argument is similar to saying that if you are a very careful driver, you don't always need your seat belt, and you can choose the right time to wear it, and that it only provides marginal safety anyway, since you are taking all these other precautions.

I'm saying that you can take every precaution, and still something bad can happen, and if you don't have your helmet on when it does, you might not live to regret it.

I think what is not debateable is that you should be prudent, be aware of the climbing situation, and take precautions. Helmets are for when the s--- hits the fan, and you can never know when that will be, so I wear mine most of the time when I'm climbing.

Well it certainly isn't clear to me that they were at fault--and I was there!

The idea that one "shouldn't" fall in certain situations is not real clear. Sure experinced climbers understand and respond to "should not fall" situations but I have seen solid 5.11 leaders fall on 5.8. I have seen "tested" holds break. Come on there is lots of objective danger.


And of course, good judjement is most important--but wearing a helmet does not negate that--that's my point.

My biggest problem with the modern helmet crowd is that in practice, and among other things, it has replaced the DO NOT CLIMB UNDERNEATH OTHER PEOPLE rule.

Lets see, which makes more sense? Wear a helmet in an effort to protect yourself from people dropping things on you or don't climb underneath the people in the first place?

So the newbie crowd has discarded the idea of not falling on easy routes...

...Discarded the rule of not climbing under other people.

Discarded the idea of learning how to follow before they start leading...

...Decided that dropping a rock on their partner, it isn't their fault...

After all of that, they go out and buy a helmet and talk about how much safer they are because of it, and how anybody who doesn't wear a helmet must be stupid.

The hypocrisy that I see from the group as a whole, gets old. Particularly when reading these "I wear a helmet threads."

Let's take Tahquitz and Suicide for example. The increase in rock fall hazard is way out of proportion to the increase in climber traffic. It was getting crowded on weekends 15 years ago. There wasn't the same rock fall madness that there is today. If anything, it was more common to come close to getting hit by a figure eight. (The sound of a figure eight pinging down the weeping wall is something I will never forget)
There was a definite correlation between the increase in the use of helmets and the increase in the need to wear a helmet. People seem to be getting the helmet message pretty good. On the other hand, they do not seem to be getting the message that it is possible to climb without sending every other rock down the cliff. From what I have seen people are getting worse at this every year and the rocks that they are sending down are getting larger as well.

I will not climb there on weekends anymore because I consider it an unreasonable and unnecessary risk. I climbed there for years without a helmet, I will still climb there mid-week without a helmet. The only rock fall that has ever hit me was small stuff from sudden thunder showers. If your of the opinion that wearing a helmet compensates for that additional risk, then I would have to say that you are deluding yourself.

Bold and fearless is good to a degree. Getting killed by letting a gumby drop a rock on your head is stupid.

I have seen a connection between wearing a helmet and taking lead falls. (particularly on 5.9's and under) The helmet crowd tends to forgo the idea of climbing within your limits. (Is anyone going to deny that the modern crew falls more often. Is anyone going to claim that is because falls are safe now?)

I have also seen a correlation between wearing a helmet and letting the rope get behind your leg, and between helmets and taking stupid unsafe falls on the first two bolts of a sport climbs! People start leading earlier and with less experience and skill then was the case in the old days. Anyone want to make a case that this has improved safety.

For myself, I climb on choss all the time. I just make sure that it is steep enough that I am not going to drop anything on my belayer. Maple and the Potrero are great examples. Climb the steeper stuff and you are fine without a helmet. Climb the easier lower angle stuff and you are not fine even with a helmet.

Just because it's common doesn't mean it's right. With a few exceptions, I guess (because there always are some) you don't want to be standing 15 feet back form the wall.

Well gee Dorothy, do tell! And I am sure that all offenders will read your post and stop standing so far back immediately.

By the way, nobody said it was right, in fact, I pointed out that it leads to trouble. Did you miss that part?

keep it short, to the poiint , interesting and with a bit of humor. the full page responses suck about as bad as the origional childish rant :roll:

One of the central points Dan is making, and that I agree with, is that you will not often get yourself into "the crap" situation, if you are being prudent. If you decide to knowingly put yourself in "the crap" situation by deciding to climb below other people, climb choss, climb ice, etc.--then by all means wear a helmet, because you will be somewhat safer. However, you will not be as safe as climbing under more prudent conditions, even without a helmet.

Curt

Wait. Who's Dorothy? Do you mean John Gill's wife? I'm so confused now. Hahahaha.

Curt

I am surprised (but should not be, I suppose) at the number of responses to Dan here that indicate a fundamental lack of understanding, regarding Dan's excellent point.
Curt

That's just not true if you mostly go adventure climbing on unknown rock. You can say that it is then not prudent to do new routes, I guess. Suit yourself. I get in the crap situation a lot. On purpose. cause it's fun.

The whole idea of avoiding loose rock is funny to me, cause I see loose rock on nearly every new climb. THere is nothing more fun than trying to hit your belayer with a big rock! Of course, if you actually hit him, there could be trouble, so DON'T try this at home! Also, don't hit his dog with a rock, cause that will make him mad. Some people are funny about their dogs that way. Go figure.

But I digress. Raiing down rocks, dirt, various sorts of plant life and god only knows what is great fun, it's what doing an FA is all about. The trick is to make sure YOUR gear is out of the falliing zone, but your partner's stuff is right where everything will hit. IF you can bury some of his stuff, so much the better! Maybe he will forget about it and you can come back later and score some new gear. Burying your partner is frowned upon though, unless you hit him with a really big rock. Then you are sort of obligated to at least cover him with a big flat rock, a process known as "Flat Rocking". This procedure can also be used on the imprudent and unlucky learder from time to time.

But back to loose rock. The idea of avoiding it is fine, but if you are doing new routes in a popular area, you have some resposibility to clean up the routes so that Joe Climber will not grab on to that tempting flake edge (that is held on by sticky dirt moelcules holding hands with each other) and pull it off on himself and his friends, who are sitting in Crazy Creek chairs under the climb socializing.

All this talk about rock fall, hell, we have not even gotten to big sticks and dead trees! Now, I can tell you that there is NOTHING like tossing a 500 pound dead tree off a cliff. Especially one that is holding on by a few dead root hairs, and wishes only to kill a stupid human climber. It is much better style if you can pull the tree off while on lead, this is known as Onsight Tree Tossing. You may have to find a new belayer if you do this very often though, and most parties agree that the big stuff should come off when the second is above it and nobody is anywehre near the drop zone.


My last words about rockfall:

Gee,. all those rocks at the base of the cliff, they got there somehow... Did someone carry then in for decoration? NO! Why, I think they fell off the cliff!!!!! Some are big. Some are small. Some would not hurt your head at all. Some are large, some are round. Some would mash you in the ground.

Oh one more, it's so catchy:

Talus: Once was up, now is down. And if you have not noticed, there is a LOT of talus.

And one serious word to those who think they can avoid every bad situation: Sometimes, especially on previously unclimbed rock, you just can't tell what will come off and what will stay on. Some rock looks bad but is good, and some looks good but will come of in your hand with very little effort. Put your hand on enough new rock and you will find this out. Obviously bad rock is one thing, you can avoid that, but some crap rock is just not waving a flag and telling you that it is loose or crumbly. So you may think you can avoid bad rock, but if you were to climb on new rock much, you'd find that you can't always do that.

EDIT: Sorry Tradman, this may not be short, but I hope you got a laugh out if it. NO actual climbers or pets were harmed in the events that inspired this post, although I almost got my ass beat good for nearly dropping a tree on some friends once.

Well gee Dorothy, do tell! And I am sure that all offenders will read your post and stop standing so far back immediately.

By the way, nobody said it was right, in fact, I pointed out that it leads to trouble. Did you miss that part?

Hi, did somebody stir a little condescending asshole into your coffee this morning?

I was not even disagreeing with you, just making a statement (perhaps reiterated) that it is a bad habit, but one that both climber and belayer can control, to stand way out of the wall.

keep it short, to the poiint , interesting and with a bit of humor. the full page responses suck about as bad as the origional childish rant :roll:

Well, that's the other thing. One man's well thought out and articulated analysis is another man's childish rant.

Curt

Ho, ho, the mother of all helmet debates. Although I identify emotionally with Dan, I find myself able to sympathize with a broad spectrum of responses. This means, I suppose, that I find myself in disagreement with parts of the same spectrum as well.

I see two conflicting lines of thinking both of which, in extreme forms, seem flawed.

One approach is that experienced and thoughtful climbers have an almost limitless ability to mitigate dangers. While true to a great extent, I think it is possible to carry this too far. Once in a while, and not as infrequently as we might like, things do go unexpectedly wrong. I've had rocks kicked on me by people I did not know were up there. I've had "bombproof" pro blow. I've had a hold I've used maybe 50 times break off on the 51st. I've fallen upside down for no reason I can explain in retrospect. I've lost good friends who were experienced and careful. I've seen others suffer bad injuries, and yet others walk away from things that should have killed them. After 40 years, I have become more humble, and I'm not nearly as confident in my ability to control everything as I was in my first 10, 15, 20 years of climbing.

On the other end of the spectrum are those who view climbing safety as a collection of voodoo incantations, which if recited continually will keep the evil spirits away. Helmet use, brake hand positions, rappel backups, stopper knots, and so on, become mantras that eliminate, rather than provoke thoughtful interpretation of the demands of the situation. These folks are in more danger than they think, precisely because they aren't thinking about the actual dangers they face.

This leaves me pretty firmly in the "it depends" camp. Nowadays, I wear a helmet on crags more and more. Helmets have gotten a lot lighter and less intrusive, although even a Petzl Meteor is just awful in hot weather. It is indeed harder to avoid falling objects on popular crags than it used to be. And a consequence of my relatively newfound humbleness is that a bit of redundance is a good thing, and a helmet often seems like the extra backup I put in before a big runout, even if the original piece is "bombproof." However, in the end, a personal decision has to be made. Redundance is nice, but you can't back up everything all the time, and everyone has to draw their own line---a process that can have different results on different days.

Neither of these points addresses a third issue that Dan raises but then, to my way of thinking, clouds with the suggestion that helmets somehow cause more rockfall. I think more rockfall is caused by carelessness, inattention, and a failure to recognize, much less assume, responsibility for the safety of those underneath you. I dimly sense that these attitudes are somehow related to crowding. Leading a trad pitch seems to me to be a fundamentally private occasion; there is something almost voyeuristic about watching someone struggle for composure and control on the rock. The presence of others is an intrusion, and there may be a strong desire to pretend they are not there.

But they are, and it is a matter of the most fundamental decency to be as sure as we possibly can that no harm comes to them on our account.

I pretty much consider it a fact that as a group, disregarding other factors, people that wear helmets do tend to be more accident prone.