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alpnclmbr1
Dec 18, 2004, 7:49 AM
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Re Cracklover. You seem to be one of the more sensible climbers on the site.
I haven't climbed back east very much.
I have done a lot of the weekend warrior routine.
I have arranged things so that I can work on weekends now. If I wasn't living in so cal it may have been less of an issue. (not really)
Re: Crowded multi-pitch
Be the first people on the route. It is good practice to try to be the most motivated party on the route. Easier said then done.
Climb fast. (it gives you flexibility and everyone you pass is one less person that can drop something on you)
Climb late.
Traversing routes.
Climbing harder routes eliminates a lot of problems.
Pick the party that you follow carefully. You can usually tell the party that is going to drop something, from the party that is not going to drop anything, just from watching them climb
Sometimes it is better to go bouldering.
Re leading/following
If you can stick to the no fall ethic, leading will teach you more then following. This assumes you have aced ground school. (for you, I would say climb on as many different types of rock as you can)
I learned how to climb on lead. I wouldn't characterize that as being particularly safe in the short run anyway. (ignorance is bliss)
Re?
I never really had a mentor. I met one experienced climber that didn't give a shit enough to be able to tell me to go lead this. For some reason I trusted his judgment and led the route. A year and a half later when I repeated the route and knew what the words pendulum and run-out meant......
Re: Climbing partners of different strength relative to yourself. It is good to mix it up.
In reply to: alpnclmbr1 wrote: Bold and fearless is good to a degree. Getting killed by letting a gumby drop a rock on your head is stupid. >>That's a strong statement. Do you think it is stupid to climb at any of the dozens of popular multi-pitch trad crags in the US on weekends?>>
It is kind of a personal mantra. I would be extremely embarrassed if I died from rock fall. I have a hard time thinking of a worse way to go, for a climber. I have avoided climbing at any number of places because of this issue. I am pretty confident that this practice has contributed to my safety way more then always wearing a helmet would have. I can often discard the helmet because in the bigger picture, I have more then compensated for its use.(note: this is an explanation of how I look at it. It is not a recomendation.)
In reply to: alpnclmbr1 wrote: I have seen a connection between wearing a helmet and taking lead falls. (particularly on 5.9's and under) The helmet crowd tends to forgo the idea of climbing within your limits. (Is anyone going to deny that the modern crew falls more often. Is anyone going to claim that is because falls are safe now?) I can only speak for myself, but for me - here, you are wrong. I led traditional lines for two years before I began pushing myself at my limit regularly. With one exception, the only falls on trad routes I have ever taken have been on steep routes of 5.9 or harder.
Seems like you are the new old school.
=-=-=-=-=
The really old schoolers that I know are still doing stupid unsafe stuff, by my standards.
=-=-=-=-==-=
In reply to: But here's the rub - people are not going to stop climbing at popular multi-pitch crags on the weekend. Do you have any solutions for these people? If you don't, then the climbing industry is giving them a level of safety that you cannot.
The climbing industry as a whole requires the attraction and retention of new climbers. That is inherent in their business models. I take that fact and some logical assumptions and put 2 and 2 together.....
I don't put too much of the blame at their door. But I would say that they are probably part of the problem. Their job is to try and sell you safety. My stance is that you cannot buy safety, period.
Is a ropes function to save your life in the event of a fall or is it a tool designed to encourage people to place themselves in mortal danger?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
In reply to: No, of course not. But you have to admit, it does look a little like damning with faint praise. Anyway, my main problem with your otherwise fair rant is that it gives precious few answers for the weekend-warrior multi-pitch tradster, while suggesting that one of the tools in his arsenal is a crutch that will only get him into trouble.
I pretty much think that helmets are being oversold. No need for me to add to it.
As far as the rest of it, that is the trouble with speaking in generalizations. (see above for what little I can offer)
If you wouldn't rock climb without a helmet; Yet, you would climb with a helmet. Then you are into placing your faith in the tooth fairy.
=-=-==-=-=
I treat rock fall hazard in a very similar way as I treat lightning. I am downright paranoid about lightning. (there are very few things that can get me out of bed at 2:00 in the morning)
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guangzhou
Dec 18, 2004, 11:36 AM
Post #102 of 149
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Again, my problem with this rant is that you claimed that people who wear helmets are unsafe climbers. Visit a sport crag on any weekend and you'll find very few helmets while still finding many mistakes.
I also don't agree with you that falling is not safe. Actually, thinking along those lines will be more limiting then enhancing to climbing. I order to fall safely, you have to know how to fall and when it's not safe to fall. They are definately times when falling is unsafe, but I have been on many 5.9 below routes where that was not the case.
I comletely agree with you on the main issue. Wearing a helmet doesn't make you a safer climber, but wearing a helemt will help eliminate some of the danger that are out there.
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dingus
Dec 18, 2004, 4:33 PM
Post #103 of 149
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In reply to: I love it. Sport climbers and boulderers discussing objective hazards. That's rich! When was the last time you actually had man-killer rocks or ice zinging past your head? :lol: :lol:
Hey there huge
Round these parts, I am as likely to get beaned by a rock at a sport crag, more likely in fact, than I am trad.
Why?
Sport climbing on overhanging choss at developing cliffs... there is a newness to these routes that pays gravitational dividends. The belayer is often standing near the receiving ends of these deposits.
When we climb at one cliff in particular... it is considered (by us) more important for the belayer to wear than the leader.
DMT
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dingus
Dec 18, 2004, 4:38 PM
Post #104 of 149
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I am not convinced, not even for a minute, that I am safer climbing without a helmet than with. Doesn't mean I always wear one, as ultimate safety isn't always my goal. I just don't confuse convenience and comfort with safety and prudence.
Sorry. No cookie for you.
DMT
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bobd1953
Dec 18, 2004, 10:33 PM
Post #105 of 149
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In reply to: Just ask paul pritchard about helmets if you need a negative example. rus raffa might have a thing or two to say but he can't caus he is dead.
Get your information right, Russ Raffa (NY) is alive and kicking. Where in the F%^k did you get your information?
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curt
Dec 18, 2004, 10:37 PM
Post #106 of 149
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In reply to: In reply to: Just ask paul pritchard about helmets if you need a negative example. rus raffa might have a thing or two to say but he can't caus he is dead. Get your information right, Russ Raffa (NY) is alive and kicking. Where in the F%^k did you get your information?
Maybe Russ is dead but just doesn't know it yet. Do you want to tell him, or should I? :roll:
Curt
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gunkjunkie
Dec 19, 2004, 12:16 AM
Post #107 of 149
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I have some difficulty understanding the reasons given for not wearing helmets - they don't seem to be logical. Helmets don't cause unsafe patterns of behavior - it is very likely that the people exhibiting those undafe behaviors would act in the same manner regardless of whether they were wearing a helmet or not.
I writing on this board today because a helmet saved my life - I fell off a horse and sustained a very serious concussion. I was unconscious for over a day and unable to care myself for over a week. I was functioning at a child's level for about a month and dealt with reprecussions headaches etc. for sometime after. I hate to think what would have happened had I hit the ground without a helmet. One can have an accident at anytime - holds break, weather changes, some idiot climbs over you and drops something (happened to me) - and helmets offer an additional margin of safety. Granted they don't remove all risks - neither do rappel backups or little rangefinder dots on the metolius cams (I find these to be silly but maybe they help.).
Since my last concussion (non-climbing) I have difficulty finding words (it sucks to be holding a stapler in your hand and not be able to find the word for it) and problems learning new tasks - as well as post-head injury migranes - so even minor concussions can have serious effects.
Deirdre
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adnix
Dec 19, 2004, 7:31 AM
Post #108 of 149
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In reply to: Okay, so for weekend warriors like myself, how do you suggest I approach climbing at 3-8 pitch crags like Cannon, Whitehorse, Cathedral, Precipice, the Gunks, etc - all of which can, on a busy weekend, be as covered in climbers as a dropped lollipop with ants. But let's face it, unless you're young and cute (and preferably have breasts), getting a full-time mentor ain't so easy these days. What's your solution for today's would-be trad leader? That's a strong statement. Do you think it is stupid to climb at any of the dozens of popular multi-pitch trad crags in the US on weekends?
Finding a mentor is hard, but possible. Most mentors want to train future climbing partners. Pick one that has same type of goals and ask him/her stuff related to these goals. He/she will be interested. I know this since I've done it. And it's been done to me.
It is stupid to climb below anyone. Area doesn't matter.
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zara
Dec 19, 2004, 1:27 PM
Post #109 of 149
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(to the writer of the thread)
I just started rock climbing this year in the summer. On Friday I did a climb called "Jackie"(5.6) in the gunks. As you can see, I am a noob. I understand your post, but cant u follow all the safety guidelines you are mentioning and still wear a helmet. Surely not everyone that wears a helmet is a completely irresponsible climber.
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alpnclmbr1
Dec 19, 2004, 4:21 PM
Post #110 of 149
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In reply to: (to the writer of the thread) I understand your post, but cant u follow all the safety guidelines you are mentioning and still wear a helmet.
If you make an effort to follow as many of them as you can. Then you will be safer.
In reply to: Surely not everyone that wears a helmet is a completely irresponsible climber.
You are not the only person who has made that comment. My bad for leaving that perception. Of course not.
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alpnclmbr1
Dec 19, 2004, 4:31 PM
Post #111 of 149
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In reply to: I have some difficulty understanding the reasons given for not wearing helmets - they don't seem to be logical. Helmets don't cause unsafe patterns of behavior - it is very likely that the people exhibiting those undafe behaviors would act in the same manner regardless of whether they were wearing a helmet or not.
All I can say is that the increased use of a helmet has paralled the increase in irresponsable behavior around loose rock and increased exposure to loose rock.
In reply to: I writing on this board today because a helmet saved my life - I fell off a horse and sustained a very serious concussion.
Getting hurt should always be a major concern. Wearing a helmet can be a useful measure in that regard. However, it is far from being the most important step that you can take. Keep it's use in perspective. A helmet doesn't do much good if you break your neck.
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alpnclmbr1
Dec 19, 2004, 4:37 PM
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=-=--=
Scrappydoo wrote:
In reply to: However, the original argument presented is flawed, a false dichotomy. the reasoning is "the act of wearing a helmet renders a person incapable of being aware of, and taking steps towards averting, dangers"-- i.e. you can't wear a helmet AND be a safe climber at the same time. This, obviously, is patently false.
I wear a helmet on occasion, and I like to think that I am a relatively safe climber.
=-=-=--===--
re seatbelt stats. The numbers i have seen seem to show that the adoption of mandatory seatbelt laws led to a 50% decrease in the likelyhood of dieing in a highway accident.
=-=-=--====-=-=
For what it's worth, I use a helmet for both skiing and mountain biking. I also consider both of these activities to be much more dangerous then rock climbing.
=-=-=-=-==-
In reply to: i.e. stupid people kill smart people
=--=--=-=
joeschmoe wrote:
In reply to: Helmets are there to protect you when good judgement can't, plain and simple.
=-=---=-=--=-=-=
sspssp wrote
In reply to: So if you guys are so good that you can hang on to broken holds and casually toss them aside, I assume you don't ever fall either? So in addition to leaving the helmet at home, you might as well leave the rope, right?
Speaking for myself. Often times, yes. Sometimes, it is even safer, to leave the rope behind than it would be to take it.
=-=-=-=-
In reply to: Just out of curiosity, what are you trying to accomplish with your post/rant?
I am trying to point out that wearing a helmet and then doing stupid unsafe things is to a large extent, hypocritical.
For the most part, I formed this bias ten years ago or more. When I see a helmet. Warning flags go up and I tend to watch the person. If the person does a number of stupid things in a short time, I go elsewhere. (keep in mind that I do not climb in areas with major rockfall hazard)
=-=-=-=-
Note: Being a beginner is not a justification for stupidity.
=-=-=-=-=-=
Dirtineye wrote
In reply to: If you are never going to Feck up, and you are never going to have to deal with an unpredictable act of god while climbing, then you don/t need to wear a helmet.
I have always spent a large amount of my time operating under the oopps and you die mode.
The other times are under the theory of minimizing my mistakes to the point that I am unlikely to die when I do make mistakes. In my mind, in the event of a win the lottery type of accident. A helmet saving you would be like winning the lottery twice in one moment. If a helmet saves you from a golf ball; then it is time to start worrying about the brick.
Rgold wrote
In reply to: Neither of these points addresses a third issue that Dan raises but then, to my way of thinking, clouds with the suggestion that helmets somehow cause more rockfall. I think more rockfall is caused by carelessness, inattention, and a failure to recognize, much less assume, responsibility for the safety of those underneath you.
My rant is based on how I feel about the unsafe "gumbies of america."
The reason I am directing these comments specifically towards helmet wearers is because I am assuming that they are interested in being as safe as is possible. (Spending cold cash on something that people think is uncool, that says something) My suggestions are geared towards encouraging people that want to be safe climbers to distinguish themselves from the unsafe people that sometimes don't wear helmets, but often do.
If they were choosing and using helmets in a responsible manner, then they would always be the exemplary climbers at any crag.
=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=---==--=-=-=-
As far as the length of the post. I started writing and collecting that and this post about a year ago. I planned on trimming it down at some point. As it was, it just kept getting longer. Just imagine what it would of looked like if I had waited another year.
I didn't really make any recommendations in regards to whether or not anyone should or should not wear a helmet.
Most of my comments are directed towards the practices of a group of people who tend to wear helmets, not the helmets themselves.
I would assume that most people that wear helmets are concerned about their safety. So then what is the deal with people wearing helmets and then doing crazy unsafe things. I can understand the people who do not wear helmets and do stupid unsafe things. They are just stupid. What's up with the other guys?
The defensiveness around the topic of helmets say's something. I am not sure what.
RE: risk tolerance strategies. Good luck. I try to keep a balance. If I take more risks there; I will take less risks over there...
RE: the touron's throwing things off the cliff. I treat being subject to that risk in a similar manner to natural rock fall or a threatening lightning storm. As a general rule I avoid being in those situations. When I am in them I tend to leave as soon as possible. If I get hurt under those circumstances, it's my own fault. Trying to blame it on something outside of your control is pointless.
Survival training, where they send you in with only a knife, and everyone else has guns. Think of your head as being a big target that the rock gods are trying to hit. Sometimes fear is a good thing.
I would think that just about anyone that has worn a helmet while skiing or boarding will know from personal experience that at they very minimum, they have the potential of contributing to recklessness.
RE; the guy that can only climb at a dangerous crowded crag. A certain amount of risk is inherent in the activity, if you can accept that risk. Climb on. Then, as soon as you can, arrange things so that you never have to do that again. It is one of those stack the odds in your favor, when you can.
RE: Falling head first is a good reason to wear a helmet. A helmet may save you once, it may even save you twice...
If you want to live a long and fruitful climbing life. Avoid taking headfirst falls. Whether or not you are wearing a helmet is really beside the point.
RE: inadvertent awkward falls. All I can say is that if you do a thorough enough of a job in preventing them in first place. Then you are less likely to pay the ultimate price if and when it does happen.
=-===--
A few real world scenarios that some of my observations were based on.
=--=-=-=-=-=-==-=
A guy gets two pieces off the ground, runs it out to possible ground fall territory, throws a heel hook over his head and peels. He take a head first dive at the ground and then swings sideways until he smacks into his belayer. While he is swinging sideways, his head is scraping the ground.
Thank god he was wearing a helmet??? Really, I would have to question that conclusion. The guy may have been better off not wearing a helmet and actually having hit his head. Then he might of learned something.
As it is, the guy got back up, dusted himself off, and did the same exact thing again. I didn't wait around to see if he did it a third time, or what the result was...
That kind of stuff makes me mad.
=---=-=-=-=-==-=
Of the people I know, that started climbing about 5 to 8 years after I did. I think maybe 60% of them broke an ankle. This is versus pretty much none in the crew that started when I did or before.
The new crew tried to imitate the old crew without the benefit of four or five years on the rock? That and the overall group had changed because it was slowly becoming easier to become a climber.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-
Tahquitz and suicide warning signs.
For years, helmets were a pretty good sign of someone you didn't want to climb next to. Helmets and hexes meant sierra clubbers. Again, often someone to avoid.
These signs were verified as being good warning signs numerous times over many years.
"We should leave" was rarely even debated, we just did it.
This is not to say that there were not the occasional uber safe climbers that wore helmets. These guys actually stood out in the precision of their procedures and how they climbed. They were and are far from being the norm.
=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-===-=--=-=
Note: I may be overstating things in terms of the current crew of helmet wearers. They haven't convince me of that.
Some people operate with unrealistic expectations of their helmet.
The one guy that I know that died from rock fall that got the side of his neck. (carotid artery) Are you dogmatic helmet wearers fully aware of the significance of this event?
My general impression of a random rc.com group is that it is safer to run away. Like wearing a helmet times two as far as a warning sign.
Finally, proof is in the pudding. I have gone through twenty years of moderately hard bouldering, sport, trad, and alpine. Sometimes I wear a helmet, not a big deal. The big deal is that I have never been hit on the head with a rock. (I have been tagged by ice a few times, with a helmet of course.) My absolute worst falls have been pendulums into a wall. Always feet first, and resulting in bruised feet maybe three times in twenty?
Maybe, you already can't match that effort. Doesn't matter. What does matter is the record that you can keep in the future.
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tuna
Dec 19, 2004, 6:47 PM
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I like to wear my helmet on long alpine routes because its shiny.
Maybe you should get a shiny helmet as well. And get a large one for that big ego of yours.
In reply to: "As far as falling and hitting your head on a rock? I have taken, belayed, or witnessed something on the order of 10,000 to 20,000 falls"
WOW that makes 7658 days since you first started climbing. We can say no more than 15,000 falls that you have seen , taken or belayed it it it means you have climbed every day since you started and on the average have fallen or belayed a faller or seen someone falling 1.9587 time per day
I would not want to climb with you since I think that either makes you unlucky or careless.
How many days have you worn your helmet since you started climbing. Has it been every day that might explain such high numbers.
In reply to: "The bottom line is that I have seen a higher percentage of people with helmets doing stupid things specifically related to the supposed protection a helmet offers"
Im sure someone said the same thing when cams were first introduced those stupid people thinking that a cam would make a crack climb safer by allowing someone to run it out just a bit further
mmmm bored now think I might go and put my helmet on the ice is perfect
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antigrav
Dec 19, 2004, 9:26 PM
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The really, really amazing thing is that so many non-helmet-users are so occupied with the usage of helmets. It's almost as if it's not so singular an idea that helmet-use => carelessness => increased danger to helmetless climbers. Peculiar.
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chrisparedes
Dec 20, 2004, 12:15 AM
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You make good points, but that still does not change the fact that you are going to be more protected from unexpected events when you are wearing a helmet as opposed to not wearing a helmet.
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bobd1953
Dec 20, 2004, 1:08 AM
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Funny, talk all you want. Seem to be a lot less accidents 25 years ago when very few wore them. less climbers too...but climbers works their way through the grades and learn how to place and use gear.
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coylec
Dec 20, 2004, 1:52 AM
Post #118 of 149
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In reply to: I am not convinced, not even for a minute, that I am safer climbing without a helmet than with. Doesn't mean I always wear one, as ultimate safety isn't always my goal. I just don't confuse convenience and comfort with safety and prudence.
After several helmet discussions being across the aisle from Mr. MilkToast, I believe we're on the same side here. Wearing a helmet is a personal choice, and a choice which should be with knowledge of what that decision entails. (DMT: If I'm mischaracterizing your thoughts, please correct me).
I'm a helmet proponent. I think that you should wear a helmet unless you've got the experience and knowledge to make a qualified judgment call not use a helmet.
Do helmets cause accidents? No. The choice of wearing a helmet or not the most important safety decision to make? No. It's part of a matrix of safety factors.
Perhaps I'm just lucky, but I've been hit by falling rock, I've had gear dropped on me, and I've had inverted falls. This doesn't include my propensity to knock my head into overhangs, and my clumsiness whilst walking. I've been struck in the head with a thrown rope (thrower didn't call "rope") and a basketball (gym climbing).
But, its your choice. You can choose between the increased margin of safety that a helmet affords or not. But if I'm first on scene after you've split your brain open 'cause you weren't wearing a helmet, I'll help patch you up, but I will tell ya you should have been wearing a helmet.
Oh, yeah -- this is a gem:
In reply to: Murphy's law is just waiting to accellerate towards your unprotected scalp at 9.8 m/s.
coylec
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bobd1953
Dec 20, 2004, 2:23 AM
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In reply to: Perhaps I'm just lucky, but I've been hit by falling rock, I've had gear dropped on me, and I've had inverted falls. This doesn't include my propensity to knock my head into overhangs, and my clumsiness whilst walking. I've been struck in the head with a thrown rope (thrower didn't call "rope") and a basketball (gym climbing).
dude, time to change partners or stop climbing all together.
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coylec
Dec 20, 2004, 2:48 AM
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Perhaps.
Only one of those accidents were caused by a partner (you know who you are :wink: ) and it was just luck of the draw.
I wear a helmet though ... so no injuries. :D [knock]
coylec
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veritasmmv
Dec 20, 2004, 3:56 AM
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if they're so highly unlikely events why did you list like 10 guys?
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gunkiemike
Dec 20, 2004, 3:28 PM
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OK, the group therapy is working; the truth is coming out:
> For years, helmets were a pretty good sign of someone you didn't want to climb next to. Helmets and hexes meant *sierra clubbers*. Again, often someone to avoid.
These signs were verified as being good warning signs numerous times over many years.
"We should leave" was rarely even debated, we just did it.
>My general impression of a random *rc.com group* is that it is safer to run away. Like wearing a helmet times two as far as a warning sign.
(Emphasis asterisks added)
It seems you just don't like gumbie groups, period. No need to bring helmets into it.
Sadly, it takes longer to develop a sense of what the rope is doing as you drag it across a ledge, to be able to fumble for crux gear without dropping any, and to judge/test suspect handholds before pulling on them than it does to walk out of the store with a shiny new brain bucket. Give the gumbies time - if they stick with this game they will acquire the subtle points of climbing safety.
Realize that many of these same newbs may also want to climb hard, serious routes like their heros in the magazines. This also takes time, but notice that they already have all the gear trappings of a hard(wo)man. Is that hypocritical? I don't think so. It's just easier these days to gear up - for either safety OR upward progression) - than it is to gain experience and the judgement that comes along with it.
Not to flame, but be careful...you're becoming a bitter and jaded old climber.
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dingus
Dec 20, 2004, 4:02 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I writing on this board today because a helmet saved my life - I fell off a horse and sustained a very serious concussion. Getting hurt should always be a major concern. Wearing a helmet can be a useful measure in that regard. However, it is far from being the most important step that you can take. Keep it's use in perspective. A helmet doesn't do much good if you break your neck.
A helmet can be a useful measure in regards to injury you say???
WOW! Now that is a SHOW STOPPER!!!111
DMT
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dingus
Dec 20, 2004, 4:06 PM
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In reply to: I am trying to point out that wearing a helmet and then doing stupid unsafe things is to a large extent, hypocritical.
Then so is using a lead rope and then running it out 100 feet. Or using any semblance of safety equipment and then taking any chance whatsoever. All hypocritical?
Bull shit.
Wearing a helmet is NOT, to a large extent, or to any great extent AT ALL, hypocritical.
You are flat out wrong.
DMT
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gds
Dec 20, 2004, 4:12 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Thanks, but you only explained what happened in those situations, not why the climber was not at fault. In each case, it is clearly the climber (or belayer) who shares fault. ... Yes, by all means, wear your helmet, but judgement and common sense are what provide the most safety. Well it certainly isn't clear to me that they were at fault--and I was there! The idea that one "shouldn't" fall in certain situations is not real clear. Sure experinced climbers understand and respond to "should not fall" situations but I have seen solid 5.11 leaders fall on 5.8. I have seen "tested" holds break. Come on there is lots of objective danger. And of course, good judjement is most important--but wearing a helmet does not negate that--that's my point. Since you brought it up, for those three cases you mentioned, 1) Climbing at a location where rockfall is likely 2) Belayer in line of rockfall, possibly not paying attention; climber standing on a loose hold. 3) Climber falling where he shouldn't; possibly inadequte protection for a traverse You seem to want to absolve the climbers of any responsibility, but clearly they share some of the fault. With a little bit better judgement, even risk in situations of high objective hazard can be minimized. I agree with your point that wearing a helmet doesn't negate having good judgement, but its difficult for me to then understand how you could dismiss the climbers' responsibility in your three original anecdotes.
I guess I'm having trouble articulating.
1) Rock fall is "possible" anywhere there are rocks. How did you make the judgement it was "likely" since you have no idea where it was.
2) Almost not worth answering. as you have no idea of the situation. Multi pitch trad routes often have limited choices for setting up a belay and the "possibility" of rock fall.
3) the fall was well proteced and the move was some 3 number grades below the climbers normal lead level. But he fell. By your standards there would be no need for a rope when climbing below your lead level.
And I never said the climber bore "no" responsibilty. What I said and what I still say is that stuff happens and even with a carefull, well trained climber there are still going to be bad events and to my mind a helmet helps
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