|
dingus
Dec 20, 2004, 4:14 PM
Post #126 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
I also wear a helme much more frequently these days for my wife and kids.
Its hard to insist on your kid wearing a helmet if you don't.
And yet, as almost any parent will instinctively understand, there is one sound in the world that no parent ever wants to hear... the sound of a child's head hitting something hard.
That sound... the sound of a child's skull smashing into a rock...
Think about that sound the next time you are climbing without a helmet.
The sound of a child's head thudding that terrible, deadly sound.
I never, ever want to hear that sound, not from my children, not from any mother's son either.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Dec 20, 2004, 4:15 PM
Post #127 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
Sorry for that uncool mistaken refrence to Russ raffa. Who was the gunks climber that got killed by rockfall on the Eiger??
|
|
|
|
|
adnix
Dec 20, 2004, 4:52 PM
Post #128 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 584
|
Eiger north face... hehe. I'd doubt many of the helmet people discussed here would have balls to try it. And if they did they wouldn't succeed or would get killed. The easy 1938 line is graded mere ED2. The 1800m of it have been soloed in four and a half hours. Can't be that bad, can it.
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Dec 20, 2004, 5:29 PM
Post #129 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
In reply to: Eiger north face... hehe. I'd doubt many of the helmet people discussed here would have balls to try it. And if they did they wouldn't succeed or would get killed. The easy 1938 line is graded mere ED2. The 1800m of it have been soloed in four and a half hours. Can't be that bad, can it.
Wow, you manage to confuse climbing skill, luck, and fortitude with good safety procedures all in one short paragraph.
What's a "helmet person", anyway? Some of the best climbers I know wear helmets, and some of the best climbers I know don't wear em.
|
|
|
|
|
adnix
Dec 20, 2004, 5:45 PM
Post #130 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 584
|
"Helmet person" is someone who wears a helmet and thinks he/she is safe because of it. The root of this rant.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Dec 20, 2004, 6:08 PM
Post #131 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
So what does that make a non helmet person? Someone who does not wear a helmet because they are too cool for that and feel that they are a safer climber because they are so cool :twisted:
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Dec 20, 2004, 6:32 PM
Post #132 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: Eiger north face... hehe. I'd doubt many of the helmet people discussed here would have balls to try it. And if they did they wouldn't succeed or would get killed. The easy 1938 line is graded mere ED2. The 1800m of it have been soloed in four and a half hours. Can't be that bad, can it.
So... were you wearing a helmet when you sent the north face of the Eiger?
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
bobd1953
Dec 20, 2004, 6:46 PM
Post #133 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3941
|
In reply to: Sorry for that uncool mistaken refrence to Russ raffa. Who was the gunks climber that got killed by rockfall on the Eiger??
Wrong again. Not rock fall. It was anchor/rappel failure. It was Kevin Bein.
|
|
|
|
|
cactusjack
Dec 20, 2004, 6:51 PM
Post #134 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 27, 2004
Posts: 62
|
Dam# it! "Helmet Person"...what the heck. I love the amount of ileducated stero-typing going on. Makes sense to me why some of you don't wear a helmet,...it called flawed logic.
Look we wear helmets because stuff falls from above. Yes some people wear helmets, and think it makes them supper man. However, there are quite a bit more hard core climbing people in the sport 8+ years, who wear helmets, because they've seen what can happen to others around them.
If you choose not to wear one, don't go spreading flawed logic to get others not to wear them.
Once again, I work with brain injury, and buddy when your on the can and can't wipe your as# because you can't move half your body. Don't say we didn't worn you!
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Dec 20, 2004, 8:33 PM
Post #135 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
Show me anywhere that I have advocated that anyone discard the use of a helmet.
=-=-==-=
RE: the guy who doesn't think I have seen 10 to 20k falls.
I concentrated on sport climbing for maybe eight years out of the twenty. Four or so years full time. Somewhere around 1500 sport climbing days when you put it all together. That is an average of ten falls a days. Taken, belayed, witnessed? sure thing.....
Re: the dangerous climber part. Maybe so, I have free soloed 5.11 and bouldered highball V5.
=-=-=-=-=---=-=-=-=-=--=-==--=--=
RE: The guy who thinks being afraid of stupid gumbies and not liking them is the same thing. Whatever.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
My contention is that following the practice not letting other people (and climbing partners) drop things on you virtually eliminates the threat of rock fall. (That sounds like an endorsement of a stricter safety protocol to me.)
For most people in most areas, the risk from natural rock fall is virtually nil. Things rarely just fall out of the sky. (Helmet use is almost universal in situations where there is a high incidence of natural rock or icefall.)
If you climb with people that are careful enough to approach keeping to the rate of rock fall that they create comparable to that of natural rock fall, then you will again, be much safer.
The risk for getting hit by natural rock fall in on par with winning the lottery. For the most part, you control that risk by limiting the amount of time you spend exposed to that risk. (more time equals buying more tickets) Take a lesson from the alpine crew. This is how you deal with objective danger.
Now lets look at rock fall risk from climbing below other parties, or even worse, with a climbing partner that drops rocks on you. Would anyone argue that there is not a significantly increased risk level from climbing underneath another party as compared with the threat from natural rock fall?
=-=---=-=-=-=-
Finally, more stats.
There were 11 rock fall accidents last year in the US.(reported to anam) Around ten percent of all climbing accidents for the year and on par for average number of incidents per year. Every one of them was caused by climbers. During the same time period, the overall injury tally was cut in half. (1986-2003) (1986 was around 230 accidents, 118 total for 2003,)
So, people are getting better at not getting hurt, but they are not doing as well in regards to preventing rock fall injuries. So half as many injuries, but the same number of rock fall incidents. This seems to support my observations. (I was surprised to find that the over all accident rate had actually gone down. That is encouraging, but it is in contrast to what I sometimes see at the crags,)
In the last 50 years of climbing in Australia, there were 3 fatalities from rock fall.
=-=-=-=-==
RE: dingus,
Yes, the person who runs it out for a hundred feet on fifth class terrain with a rope and climbing partner is a hypocrite. (or stupid, as you wish)
So is the guy that buys a gun for self defense and then plays Russian Roulette with it.
And, so is the person that buys a helmet and then behaves in a stupid and unsafe manner.
There is a right and a wrong way to use a helmet, and it is capable of being misused, and it often is.
]=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
End of story for me. (I hope)
Have fun
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Dec 20, 2004, 8:56 PM
Post #136 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: In reply to: Sorry for that uncool mistaken refrence to Russ raffa. Who was the gunks climber that got killed by rockfall on the Eiger?? Wrong again. Not rock fall. It was anchor/rappel failure. It was Kevin Bein.
And it was on the Matterhorn, not the Eiger.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
rgold
Dec 20, 2004, 9:27 PM
Post #137 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2002
Posts: 1804
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Sorry for that uncool mistaken refrence to Russ raffa. Who was the gunks climber that got killed by rockfall on the Eiger?? Wrong again. Not rock fall. It was anchor/rappel failure. It was Kevin Bein. And it was on the Matterhorn, not the Eiger. Curt
And Kevin was wearing a helmet. He always did, after hitting his head in a climbing fall in the Gunks, an accident that left him with periodic epileptic seizures.
|
|
|
|
|
tuna
Dec 21, 2004, 12:36 PM
Post #138 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 28, 2004
Posts: 188
|
Equally important, and a sine qua non for future attempts, are the new plastic crash-helmets. Noichl's party as well as Diemberger and Stefan reported that during murderous volleys of stone-fire they were glad to crouch down under the full protection of their helmets. Stefan's had a great dent in it from a falling stone and but for its protection he would probaly not be alive now. But in spite of all security measures, the North Wall of the Eiger remains one of the most perilous in the Alps.
So in 1958, the twentieth year after the first ascent, brought yet another success. It showed too that there are many ways in which the dangers of the Face can be minimised. THE MOST IMPORTANT AND ABSOLUTELY INDISPENSABLE REQUISITE IS OUTSTANDING SKILL AS A CLIMBER; BUT THAT ALONE IS NOT ENOUGH.
Quoted from The White Spider written by Heinrich Harrer describing the 15th accent of the North Face in 1958 by Kurt Diemberger and Wolfgang Stefan.
|
|
|
|
|
adnix
Dec 21, 2004, 7:26 PM
Post #139 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 584
|
Routes on Eiger:
http://www.alpinist.com/...ng-notes/note/10020/
The Slovenian route hasn't seen a second ascent since nobody knows where the line goes. On the picture it's only an estimate and probably wrong. You generally have to choose between harsh conditions (=cold) or frequent rock fall (=warm).
|
|
|
|
|
takeme
Dec 29, 2004, 8:07 PM
Post #140 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 7, 2003
Posts: 367
|
I don't have anything to add to the debate, such as it is, but I remember reading a funny story Pat Ament wrote about climbing with Kor. Apparently Kor was dragging the relative newbie Ament up some new climb in the Black Canyon. When Ament reached the belay after following a pitch, Kor suddenly became enraged, picked up a bunch of rope, hurled it against the cliff, and shouted, "Where's you're hard hat? Noone climbs in the Black Canyon without a hard hat!". Ament wrote that he was so terrified by this outburst that he failed to notice that Kor wasn't wearing one either.
Wish I could remember where I read this, or what the name of the story was--the whole piece was great.
|
|
|
|
|
ricardol
Dec 29, 2004, 8:21 PM
Post #141 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
|
.. umm ... helmet wearing seems to be yet another touchy subject .. it boils down to experience and being able to make the call of when it is a required piece of equipment or not.
if the climb is steep, and not alot of people above you -- leave the helmet..
if the climb is not very steep and people might be above you .. get the brain bucket.
for example.
when i climb at five open books in yose. I DO wear my helmet ..
when i climbed tangerine trip this last fall .. I DID NOT wear a helmet. . no point in wearing it when the whole route overhangs, and everything falls away from the wall.
.. isnt' that what the original poster was saying .. that you shoudl THINK about what you're doing.
-- ricardo
|
|
|
|
|
killer_crag_move
Dec 30, 2004, 6:22 AM
Post #142 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 21
|
I like your name.. alpneclimber.. thats great.. and your sitting here trying to justify why you shouldnt wear a helmet...
you my friend.. are a fucking idiot I guarntee in your years of climbing, you will have one time..just one time you wished you wouldve been wearing a helmet. and that my friend, is all it takes.
Shut up, really. Anyone who actually takes the time to read that long post of idiocy is just as big of an idiot as the author.
WEAR A HELMET FOLKS. Especially if your a bigwaller, alpinist, trad'r..
sport climbers, i wont tell you to wear a helmet because i usually dont when i sport climb. normally all i bring with me when i sport climb is my shoes, a nalgene bottle and a power bar.
-s-
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Dec 30, 2004, 6:28 AM
Post #143 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: I like your name.. alpneclimber.. thats great.. and your sitting here trying to justify why you shouldnt wear a helmet... you my friend.. are a f---ing idiot I guarntee in your years of climbing, you will have one time..just one time you wished you wouldve been wearing a helmet. and that my friend, is all it takes. Shut up, really. Anyone who actually takes the time to read that long post of idiocy is just as big of an idiot as the author. WEAR A HELMET FOLKS. Especially if your a bigwaller, alpinist, trad'r.. sport climbers, i wont tell you to wear a helmet because i usually dont when i sport climb. normally all i bring with me when i sport climb is my shoes, a nalgene bottle and a power bar. -s-
Hey fucktard,
I have climbed with alpnclmbr1 and he is trying to make a very valid point here. Helmets alone do not make you safe--good judgement does. Clearly this is something you are lacking. STFU.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Dec 30, 2004, 7:06 AM
Post #144 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
Pretty sure that is drkodas.
Here is my response
Drkodos=scottcody=hugepedro
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Dec 31, 2004, 12:08 AM
Post #145 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
IT would kill Kodos to wear a helmet unless it were absolutely necessary. He would puke trying to get the words, "always wear a helmet ", out of his mouth. I don't think that is him.
|
|
|
|
|
esallen
Dec 31, 2004, 12:47 AM
Post #146 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 11, 2004
Posts: 304
|
There is no way I'll have time to read all of the above posts, but I think the point is well-taken: Don't assume wearing a helmet automatically makes you a "safe climber." I try to clime as safely as possible; my helmet merely provides some added protection.
|
|
|
|
|
killer_crag_move
Dec 31, 2004, 8:49 PM
Post #147 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 21
|
[Edited]
The jist of Curts post's.. people are stupid, unexperienced and think a helmet makes them safe. wow, i summed it all up in 3 sentences instead of writing a novel.
[quote="curt"]In reply to: Hey f---, I have climbed with alpnclmbr1 and he is trying to make a very valid point here. Helmets alone do not make you safe--good judgement does. Clearly this is something you are lacking. STFU. Curt
although i agree with a few points curt makes, there are still a few things I certaintly don't agree with. I guess curt climbs on solid rock where the only way a rock can get knocked off if is his partner grabs it and throws it at him.
I dont know why i bother with these forums. damn insomnia
who the hell ever said wearing a helmet makes you safe? OF COURSE GOOD JUDGEMENT MAKES YOU SAFE.
wearing a helmet is good judgement. especially if your climbing some tallas ridden fiasco.. like The Diamond or any big wall for that matter. There is no need for a helmet in a gym or on some little boulder somewhere. Helmets are not really setup for fall's, just direct hits from the top, for projectiles. Thats why they sit on the top of your head the way they do.
"you should'nt bring a helmet cuz youll drop it" right, it shouldnt leave your head.. anything can be dropped.
"dont wear a helmet cuz its not rockfall your worried about.. its a figure 8 falling" ooook
"we test all of our rope placements to make sure it doesnt knock anything off" right and umm, what happens when you fall and the swinging motion totally just messes that all up. honestly, you have to much time.
"Dont climb under people" sometimes you just can't help it. it sucks when you get stuck under some noobs from kansas but thats just part of the game. what if they are on top, unseen and start to rap off while your climbing up? ive seen this happen all to many times.
Like i said, helemts are not really there to protect you if you deck. thats why they offer little to no protection to the side of your head.
Ill post a picture of what my retired helmet looked like after eating a mishandled draw by by my partner.
Shit happens, no matter how hard you try or how experienced you are.
Edited to save board space.
|
|
|
|
|
harihari
Jan 3, 2005, 1:49 AM
Post #148 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 7, 2004
Posts: 182
|
In reply to: I have seen a connection between wearing a helmet and taking lead falls. (particularly on 5.9's and under) The helmet crowd tends to forgo the idea of climbing within your limits. (Is anyone going to deny that the modern crew falls more often. Is anyone going to claim that is because falls are safe now?) The bottom line is that I have seen a higher percentage of people with helmets doing stupid things specifically related to the supposed protection a helmet offers. And these are the same people that supposedly have a higher standard of safety. That is just wrong. You use a helmet safely and I am fine with it. Safety devices are great as long as they don't make you more unsafe.
Great post. Some points--
a) increasing the safety of an activity leads to increased risk taking. This (the theory of "risk homeostasis") has been very well documented by Gerald Wilde, a researcher at Queen's University in Canada, and by others. In one classic study, Wilde looked at a German fleet of taxicabs and their rate of accidents over one year. Half the cabs were retrofitted one year with ABS, while the other half (who were due to be retrofitted one year later) during the study period remained with their original equipment. The results? The drivers of ABS-equipped cabs had a much higher rate of dangerous driving behaviours than those of the supposedly less-safe non-ABS cabs. Why? Because the ABS cab drivers "knew" that the ABS woudl "take care" of risky behaviours, and so they increased their risky driving behaviours.
Wilde has found this kind of behaviour in lots of other places. You can read one story here:
http://www.drivers.com/article/164/
b) I've seen two accidents involving head injuries. Neither climber wore a helmet. In both cases, the climbers were in over their heads grade-wise, and both made some poor choices. However, in both cases, a helmet would have saved massive head trauma. One guy would have died if there hadn't been plenty of help around.
c) Your body can recover froma broken arm. Head trauma is incredibly complex, and affects every other part of one's life. The risk isn't worth it. I got a Petzl Meteor. Weighs nothing, well ventilated. I never climb without it.
d) It's called "accident" cos it wasn't planned.
|
|
|
|
|
danieladaniela
Feb 25, 2005, 9:46 PM
Post #149 of 149
(9646 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 1, 2005
Posts: 71
|
this msg is just to bump an excellent post
I once saw a sticker on a motorbike (we're talking motorbiking, not mountaineering.... motorbiking, where one really needs a helmet, where a helmet makes plenty of difference, and where the chances of hurting someone else are relatively low compared to the chances of hurting oneself and the passenger) that read: "Always wear a helmet. Always ride as if you didn't."
|
|
|
|
|
|
