I can't imagine when a person would rather lead than tr indoors. Gym climbing is for training; I'd feel like a complete goober if I actually got sense of accomplishment from leading inside.

Agreed! Also, leading indoors can also help fine tune belay technique...perhaps with another style of device (reference to another thread )

I used to feel somewhat like this - that leading in a gym was sort of like playing with oneself. Then I went to a gym that was configured such that leading really made sense. Some routes (as you alluded to in the part of your statement I elided) are safer led, others are just really nice to lead.

Like others, I can get a sense of accomplishment from climbing a route. It is fun to lead, and can make me feel even better than TR'ing the same route.

And, after all, we mostly climb for fun.



(oh, and to post on the internet)

Geez, aside from:

(1) situations where it's safer to lead than tr, and

(2) someone just learning how to lead,

I can't imagine when a person would rather lead than tr indoors. Gym climbing is for training; I'd feel like a complete goober if I actually got sense of accomplishment from leading inside.

You might be surprised. I climbed for 2 or 3 years before I TR-ed 5.9. I probably climbed for 6 before I led it.

The gym that I bought back in March has always been great for intermediate through advanced climbers and as long as you climbed upper 5.10/V1 or harder this place had plenty to climb and it was a lot of fun. Anyone that wanted to get started had a couple of easy routes but no progression to work up to intermediate. Since we bought it I encouraged the setters to continue setting the intermediate through advanced but then started setting a lot of easy routes on top of it, business almost doubled from the previous year in the summer. I was told that no one top roped they all boulder so I don’t need to worry about top ropes but since we started setting easier top ropes we sell way more top rope day passes than boulder passes and people actually comeback more than once or twice. To neglect the beginner climbers is not a very good business strategy and to say no one will climb the easier routes is a head in the sand approach in my mind. The majority of people that “climb” will never climb anything harder than easy 5.10. I guess what I’m saying is the more beginner friendly the gym is the more beginners you will get and while some of them will advance quickly others will work forever and never climb a 5.11. To say it’s a waste of time to set easier routes is an elitist attitude, good or bad, it just is.


edit for spelling.

But you didn't start in a gym. You started outside, and climbing trad in places like Looking Gass, didn't you?

I think that is a completely different story. There are plenty of trad climbers who have been climbing for years, who are proficient leaders, climbing multi-pitch, building bomber anchors, etc. etc. and who never go beyond 5.9.

But looking at the typical gym climber demographics, I stand by my statement. The majority get to be able to climb juggy overhanging 5.9 in a matter of months.

I think this thread has drifted right from the beginning because long-term experience on multi-pitch moderate trad routes was the op's background, and it was not clearly stated.

I can understand the indignation of someone who's been climbing (leading) outside for years, when they come into a gym and want to take a lead test and are told that sorry, but no, you have to be able to climb at least 5.9 in order to climb on our lead walls.

But I have also seen (outside) several scenarios of these kind of climbers getting on 5.9 overhanging sport route and really struggling. So I can understand where the gym management is coming from, if they don't want people really struggling and decking from 2nd/3rd bolt.

And that's what I tried saying in the earlier post. The reason gyms have these requirements is safety, and not elitism, b/c for the gym demographics this does not keep the majority of climbers away.

I don't see any point in it. Actually, I think people should start leading as soon as possible. Indoor or outdoors. Grades have nothing to do with leading in my opinion.

Waiting to long to learn to lead builds a unreal fear of leading instead of an awareness of the risk.

This goes for indoors or out.

I don't see a reason to have minimum grade for leading in agym. Instead, i think gyms can take two routes, give a lead test to someone who ask for it, doesn't matter what the grade. You're not grading how how they climb, but do they know how to lead. (Mostly a clipping thing actually)

I don't see a reason to have minimum grade for leading in agym. Instead, i think gyms can take two routes, give a lead test to someone who ask for it, doesn't matter what the grade. You're not grading how how they climb, but do they know how to lead. (Mostly a clipping thing actually)

Not sure if this was aimed at me, but yes, I learned to climb outdoors on trad routes in the 80's. Yosemite and Lake Tahoe, I didn't climb at Looking Glass until the 90 when I lived in TN.

I don't see a reason to have minimum grade for leading in agym. Instead, i think gyms can take two routes, give a lead test to someone who ask for it, doesn't matter what the grade. You're not grading how how they climb, but do they know how to lead. (Mostly a clipping thing actually)

Second, offer lead climbing classes in the gym. The routes these classes are on can be 5.5 or 5.6 of 5.2, doesn't matter, you're teaching a skill, lead climbing. Again, in gym that means efficiently clipping a pre-hung draw.

Learning to lead in a gym is probably safer than bouldering in the same gym.

I can't imagine when a person would rather lead than tr indoors. Gym climbing is for training; I'd feel like a complete goober if I actually got sense of accomplishment from leading inside.

You might be surprised. I climbed for 2 or 3 years before I TR-ed 5.9. I probably climbed for 6 before I led it.

Actually, its keeping the rope from going behind your leg. Clipping efficiency is easy. Being aware enough of the rope, and having the body control to adjust for it without pumping out are actually really difficult. Thus, we'd often have people who could otherwise climb 5.11 fail our lead test.

I agree, rope position is an important part, but like you said, the grade you climb doesn't matter.

Just speaking from experience man.

If you can afford to pay that many qualified instructors a sufficient quantity that they won't bail on you for actual guiding, and you can show that your test pass rate isn't strongly correlated with the climber's ability to climb, then more power to you.

Can someone give me a non elitist reason why a person would have to be able to lead at least a 5.9 in order to pass a lead test in a gym?

I used to feel somewhat like this - that leading in a gym was sort of like playing with oneself. Then I went to a gym that was configured such that leading really made sense. Some routes (as you alluded to in the part of your statement I elided) are safer led, others are just really nice to lead.

Like others, I can get a sense of accomplishment from climbing a route. It is fun to lead, and can make me feel even better than TR'ing the same route.

And, after all, we mostly climb for fun.



(oh, and to post on the internet)

But you didn't start in a gym. You started outside, and climbing trad in places like Looking Gass, didn't you?

I think that is a completely different story. There are plenty of trad climbers who have been climbing for years, who are proficient leaders, climbing multi-pitch, building bomber anchors, etc. etc. and who never go beyond 5.9.

But looking at the typical gym climber demographics, I stand by my statement. The majority get to be able to climb juggy overhanging 5.9 in a matter of months.

I think this thread has drifted right from the beginning because long-term experience on multi-pitch moderate trad routes was the op's background, and it was not clearly stated.

I can understand the indignation of someone who's been climbing (leading) outside for years, when they come into a gym and want to take a lead test and are told that sorry, but no, you have to be able to climb at least 5.9 in order to climb on our lead walls.

But I have also seen (outside) several scenarios of these kind of climbers getting on 5.9 overhanging sport route and really struggling. So I can understand where the gym management is coming from, if they don't want people really struggling and decking from 2nd/3rd bolt.

And that's what I tried saying in the earlier post. The reason gyms have these requirements is safety, and not elitism, b/c for the gym demographics this does not keep the majority of climbers away.

I agree with you on this, but you are talking easy/intermediate TOPROPES here, not leading.

Obviously from a business standpoint it makes sense to attract new customers and to get them hooked and interested. But do you really, truly, want them falling on lead all over the place during their first few months of climbing?

In that case, you are a braver person than other gym owners I have met. And maybe you'll show the way to others...

In our gym, the topropes are set in the 5.6-5.11a/b range, with majority being in the 5.8-5.10c/d range. There are a few -- very few, maybe 2-4 -- toprope routes in 5.11+ to 5.13 range.

The bouldering area has a few V0s and V1, more V2-V4s, and then tapers down in V5-V9+ range.

This does reflect the gym demographics pretty well. Usually new people (groups/couples) come in and are interested in toproping, so the routes are set to allow easy transition from rainbowing up the walls to easy routes (5.6), and then upward progression. There are more females in this catagory, and more older males. The majority gets to 5.8-5.9 within months, and some progress beyond that and eventually start bouldering as well as toproping.

The people who come in new and start bouldering instead of toproping are almost exclusively young single males. And they have a pretty decent chance on those V0s, and progress pretty fast to V1/V2.

Actually, leading is not just a clipping thing. Whether in a gym or outside, it's
- a clipping thing
- a finding stances to do the clipping thing reasonably efficiently
- using judgment as to to the best course of action:
- - climb on
- - rest
- - retreat
- do you have the judgment to abandon an attempt because it's not right (safe/good/whatever) for you to do it now...and can you do that safely?

Naturally, several of these are difficult to assess, especially in a one-off situation - and not necessarily something that can be assessed by a stereotypical gym employee (who knows nothing outside what the owner told them) - but...leading should not be just clipping.

I was actually responding to j_ung


I guess we'll have to disagee on this. 5.2 clipping in the gym? Why not just stand on the ground, or have a mat under you while you are a couple feet off the ground and practice clipping with a scrap 10-ft rope length?

I am looking at it the way I think I would want to do it if I had my own gym. I know that a lot of gym owners feel the same about it, and want people to have some experience and basic climbing skills before they will be leading in their gym. But if someone feels differently, and wants to have a gym where there are 5.2 sport routes to lead-- I would be interested to see how it works out, and I am sure, if it turns out to be a successful business practice it will be adapted everywhere, eventually. Since I am not actually in the business of owning a gym, I have no stakes in the matter.


Is there such thing as 5.2 sport route? I've heard of 5.3 in Rumney-- that's something Epoch's 3yo daughter can climb... I've seen a couple of 5.5s... and about as many 5.6s.

My view is that there really aren't that many sport routes under 5.7 outside. And taking a combination of a decrease in climbing ability when you go from indoors to outside, and a hit when you go from toproping to leading, there isn't much point in learning to lead sport if someone cannot toprope 5.8-5.9 inside.