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georgeblakeman
Dec 25, 2010, 10:03 AM
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j_ung wrote: georgeblakeman wrote: I certainly understand why 5.9 is the bar. It's been stated upthread more than once. It's a cost/benefit thing. It doesn't make sense to owners of a gym to set lead routes under 5.9. Simple. That being said. Gyms suck anyways. Borrow a trad rack and go lead 5.2 outside. Trust me - you'll have a much more memorable and enjoyable time than in the gym! Run a lot of climbing gyms, have you? I've run three, none under 8000 square feet. And in all three, your statement would be incorrect. Add to that your good fortune to not have to endure cold, wet winters and... No offense George, but to me, your post typifies what's incorrect about this thread. It's amazing to me that after so many years playing around on this site, I'm still surprised by its users' overwhelming inability to view an issue from any perspective other than their own.
Derrrr!! Ok buddy. What is incorrect about the statement? I would assume that a route that sees more traffic than the leadable 5.6 is a better use of time/effort/wall space. But I'm not a business man so maybe I'm wrong. If so, I apologize and bow down to your obvious vast knowledge and experience.
I have no problem seeing others' perspectives. I see that the op is upset he can't lead sub 5.9 in a gym. Well, so was I, but I worked within their policy guidelines, took climbing outside, and got over it.
I guess what I'm really getting at for the op is that he should either deal with the rules of the gym or climb elsewhere. And that learning outside can be much more inspiring, adventurous, and memorable.
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j_ung
Dec 25, 2010, 1:08 PM
Post #102 of 116
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It's not a cost/benefit thing. It's a misguided safety thing. Gyms don't necessarily suck, as evidenced by the droves of people who frequent them. And even though he never led before, you told him to buy a trad rack and have at it.
I'm sorry if that seems flamey. It isn't my intent.
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mheyman
Dec 26, 2010, 4:33 AM
Post #103 of 116
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rschap wrote: Vegastradguy was saying that many gyms make you climb at least 5.9 before leading something easier and while this seems more reasonable to me, the stories I’m getting is the lead test must be taken on a 5.9 or harder and a couple of gyms said 5.10 or harder. This is more of what I feel is elitist.
Data Point:
My regular gym is about 50/50 lead only /TR. Lead routes are labeled 5.9 and up and of course you must test on one of them. But 5.9 lead at this gym really covers a range of grades from app 5.7 to 5.9+. The staff or any regular leader there that tests with you will point out the easy one to pick from.
More:
I’ve been to half a dozen gyms in FL, DE, PA, Mass, and WI in the last year or so. Every one tested leaders in a similar fashion.
If you are willing to handle every climber on a case by case basis as you seem to argue then fine if you or the staff you must trust are knowledgeable teachers! Otherwise the 5.9 limit insures that almost everyone gets some TR practice belaying. At "my" gym that will be with a double wrapped ridiculously fat worn rope on them.
That said I encourage anyone who seems serious about the sport to start leading as soon as possible because no one will ever learn to be a good leader through TR alone.
edited for clarity
(This post was edited by mheyman on Dec 27, 2010, 5:05 AM)
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georgeblakeman
Dec 26, 2010, 5:59 AM
Post #104 of 116
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j_ung wrote: It's not a cost/benefit thing. It's a misguided safety thing. Gyms don't necessarily suck, as evidenced by the droves of people who frequent them. And even though he never led before, you told him to buy a trad rack and have at it. I'm sorry if that seems flamey. It isn't my intent.
You're right. Gyms don't suck for everyone. Just my opinion. And I specifically said he should borrow a rack. Twas my experience and was great. Again, not for everyone though.
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rschap
Dec 27, 2010, 12:09 AM
Post #105 of 116
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georgeblakeman wrote: I guess what I'm really getting at for the op is that he should either deal with the rules of the gym or climb elsewhere. And that learning outside can be much more inspiring, adventurous, and memorable.
Uhm, did you read any of this thread? I own a climbing gym, I've climbed outside as well as inside for 10 years, and I'm not upset at all. I didn't understand the reasoning for the rule and I still don't agree but that's for each gym owner to deside for their gym.
(This post was edited by rschap on Dec 27, 2010, 12:13 AM)
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tower_climber
Dec 28, 2010, 2:38 AM
Post #106 of 116
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I climb at two gyms that are close by. They have two different rule sets.
Gym A requires you to climb 5.9 for your lead test, despite having leadable routes as low as 5.6. You also have to be able to climb the entire route. My first lead test there, I clipped everything perfectly but blew the move right above the last clip before the anchors on my first try. I nailed it on the second try and clipped the anchors, and they failed me.
Additionally, I have a problem with Gym B's policy on lead BELAY certification. They require that you pass the lead climbing test before you are allowed to lead belay. This, IMHO, is stupid. My girlfriend is not comfortable climbing lead, but she is a very competent lead belayer and my climbing partner of choice.
Gym B allows you to lead test on any leadable route in the gym, and they have routes down to 5.7. They focus on clipping technique and capability, in addition to 3-point contact at all times. They do not require a climbing test in order to lead belay.
Guess which gym gets the majority of my business?
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jt512
Dec 28, 2010, 2:54 AM
Post #107 of 116
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tower_climber wrote: Gym B allows you to lead test on any leadable route in the gym, and they have routes down to 5.7. They focus on clipping technique and capability, in addition to 3-point contact at all times. They do not require a climbing test in order to lead belay.
Three points of contact at all times? That's retarded. Do they require that for leading, too, or do they let you actually lead using good technique after passing the test.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Dec 28, 2010, 2:59 AM)
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tower_climber
Dec 28, 2010, 3:03 AM
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I'm sorry, my description was extremely unclear. They watch to make sure you are clipping while maintaining three points of contact with the wall. After you pass your lead test you can climb however you want.
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mheyman
Dec 28, 2010, 3:23 AM
Post #109 of 116
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jt512 wrote: tower_climber wrote: Gym B allows you to lead test on any leadable route in the gym, and they have routes down to 5.7. They focus on clipping technique and capability, in addition to 3-point contact at all times. They do not require a climbing test in order to lead belay. Three points of contact at all times? That's retarded. Do they require that for leading, too, or do they let you actually lead using good technique after passing the test. Jay
Got to ask - can all three "points" be on the same hold, ala a heel and two hands? How bout three fingers? It's retarded and humorous!
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jt512
Dec 28, 2010, 4:17 AM
Post #110 of 116
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mheyman wrote: jt512 wrote: tower_climber wrote: Gym B allows you to lead test on any leadable route in the gym, and they have routes down to 5.7. They focus on clipping technique and capability, in addition to 3-point contact at all times. They do not require a climbing test in order to lead belay. Three points of contact at all times? That's retarded. Do they require that for leading, too, or do they let you actually lead using good technique after passing the test. Jay Got to ask - can all three "points" be on the same hold, ala a heel and two hands? How bout three fingers?
Oh, I can think of more interesting points of contact than that.
Jay
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spikeddem
Dec 28, 2010, 7:47 AM
Post #111 of 116
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jt512 wrote: mheyman wrote: jt512 wrote: tower_climber wrote: Gym B allows you to lead test on any leadable route in the gym, and they have routes down to 5.7. They focus on clipping technique and capability, in addition to 3-point contact at all times. They do not require a climbing test in order to lead belay. Three points of contact at all times? That's retarded. Do they require that for leading, too, or do they let you actually lead using good technique after passing the test. Jay Got to ask - can all three "points" be on the same hold, ala a heel and two hands? How bout three fingers? Oh, I can think of more interesting points of contact than that. Jay
"Boner Jams '03"
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georgeblakeman
Dec 28, 2010, 4:21 PM
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rschap wrote: georgeblakeman wrote: I guess what I'm really getting at for the op is that he should either deal with the rules of the gym or climb elsewhere. And that learning outside can be much more inspiring, adventurous, and memorable. Uhm, did you read any of this thread? I own a climbing gym, I've climbed outside as well as inside for 10 years, and I'm not upset at all. I didn't understand the reasoning for the rule and I still don't agree but that's for each gym owner to deside for their gym.
Ummmm....does anybody understand I'm not attacking people? Get over it buddy. Yes, I read the whole thread. And then I stated my opinion. Sorry I didn't notice you own a gym, but I don't really look at every replies' poster.
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tower_climber
Dec 28, 2010, 5:31 PM
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Glad she doesn't climb at my gym. I would have failed the lead test...
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spikeddem
Dec 29, 2010, 5:56 PM
Post #115 of 116
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j_ung wrote: tower_climber wrote: Gym A requires you to climb 5.9 for your lead test, despite having leadable routes as low as 5.6. You also have to be able to climb the entire route. My first lead test there, I clipped everything perfectly but blew the move right above the last clip before the anchors on my first try. I nailed it on the second try and clipped the anchors, and they failed me. That ridiculous, but unfortunately common. The whole point of a lead test is to make sure you can fall reasonably safely. A lot of gym managers either forgot that or never knew it.
I kinda thought it was to make sure people weren't z clipping or backclipping (in addition to falling)...
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j_ung
Dec 29, 2010, 6:18 PM
Post #116 of 116
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spikeddem wrote: j_ung wrote: tower_climber wrote: Gym A requires you to climb 5.9 for your lead test, despite having leadable routes as low as 5.6. You also have to be able to climb the entire route. My first lead test there, I clipped everything perfectly but blew the move right above the last clip before the anchors on my first try. I nailed it on the second try and clipped the anchors, and they failed me. That ridiculous, but unfortunately common. The whole point of a lead test is to make sure you can fall reasonably safely. A lot of gym managers either forgot that or never knew it. I kinda thought it was to make sure people weren't z clipping or backclipping (in addition to falling)...
I don't think we're disagreeing. You avoid those things so that if you fall...
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