There are plenty of RC.com members who have had terrible accidents and recovered and are climbing harder than ever.

I hope they speak up and help you through this difficult time.

Learning when, how, and if to push the limits of gear, your climbing, and your head game is tricky.

Hey, we are glad you are ok.

That is terrifying. Damn sure glad you are still here to do the write up on this.

As far as the solo TR rig goes, I use a Petzl Basic Ascender in the same fashion. Ultimately it is a matter of personal preference but I do not use a backup with the system and have never seen anything to make me think it needs one. At least not more so than many other climbing activities that are not routinely backedup.

So, I recently decked and spent a while thinking "oh my god I could have just died" which is certainly true, but now I'm hoping to get some perspective. How many of you folks out there have decked for one reason or another, and what was that reason? How bad was it?

While I may follow potreroed's advice and start using back-up knots my focus has been on the first line of protection rather than adding redundancy. It feels like a weak position to be coming from, but I still believe that my system is sound and that I simply made an unforgivable error. Any basic check before leaving the ground should catch my mistake, I had simply become so complacent that I had none in place.

My TR solo setup consists of a Petzl Ascension clipped through the top hole of the device with an HMS style locker to my belay loop. I don't use a second device or back-up knots.

The reason I fell was because I did not engage the cam on my ascender.

I strongly urge you to reconsider your system...

I decked almost a year ago. ... Let go of the holds while my belayer didn't have proper control of the rope. ... My fault.

Two summers ago I started climbing, and happened upon a small, super solid cliff band that was begging for development. Being a relative beginner, I used a really common set up to rap and clean these routes: single-strand rap with a GriGri. Well, I made the same mistake so many beginners do, and put all my trust in that device. I was no more than 10-12 feet above the ground, GriGri locked up, brushing dirt off a hold when "what the..." entered my mind. I don't really remember what the fall or impact felt like, but I do remember laying in a group of ferns flat on my back, afraid to move. I landed in a massive ostrich fern, on super soft PA soil. I was pissed that I would have to walk back around the little face to finish cleaning, when I started to realize how lucky I was. It could have happened 30 feet off the deck, or I could have landed on a number of odd angled sandstone boulders. I've never put 100% trust in anything since then.

I never figured out if I disengaged the cam by bumping it or unweighting it, but I have always tied a back up knot since. Moral of the story- there is no such thing as an auto-locking belay device.

How's that your fault and not the belayer's?

Edit to add: In my understanding it's the belayer's job to always have control of the rope - the climber having control of the holds is not supposed to be necessary for safety.

I would very much second this sentiment.

A guy I saw on my first climb of the year last year did the exact same mistake. We were both solo TR:ing, and he was climbing a 5.11d next to me. We both arrived at the anchors at about the same time, and just before he was going to lean back to prepare to rap, he noticed that the cam was not engaged. Like you, he didn't have any backups, so any falls or rests would have ended in disaster.

I strongly urge you to reconsider your system, and use some kind of backup.

About six weeks ago, while teaching a college climbing class, a girl, on her first day with a new device, ATC, was lowering me from the top of a second lap on a route, and got too much speed up and lost control. Burnt both hands trying to regain the belay, but could not. Augered in from around twenty feet. Thank God there is a gravel base at the bottom. Wrenched back, and shoulder muscle issues were the injuries. PT'd them myself and the shoulder is about 75% with the back in full on goodness.


Burly Bob

Glad you came out of that one in good shape all things considered. For TR solo its hard to beat the two mini-trax system. They are redundant and you file down one of the mini trax so the cam is always engaged. No knots to deal with.

T

I assume she got an "F".

I decked almost a year ago. 30 footer in a climbing gym onto a hard surface. Let go of the holds while my belayer didn't have proper control of the rope. Broke my back and bruised my heels (very painful). My fault.

This sounds pretty fishy to me. I've spent hundreds of hours hanging off a single rope with a gri-gri cleaning routes, sometimes hundreds of feet up, with no mishaps. I trust my gri gri 100% in this application.

TR in on them is widely accepted as safe practice, I am a little more reserved in my thinking here. As for leading on a toothed device, or a non engineered piece of belay equipment, I believe the risks far outweigh the cost of a specialty piece of gear.

I would just like to raise the point, obvious though it may be, that there are those who are not on rc.com because they decked and died, or were so injured, either physically or emotionally, that they can no longer climb.

Those people deserve a voice. Though they cannot answer your question - it would be wise of you to take heed of them, too.

GO

I think info from people that have gone through the experiance and how/why they came back from it is likely more helpful to the OP (who obviously wants to keep climbing) than stories of those who have quit.

now I'm hoping to get some perspective. How many of you folks out there have decked for one reason or another, and what was that reason? How bad was it?

Same scenario, except that it happened to a woman who weighs about 95 pounds and was using an old 10.2 that was slick and worn into 9.2 shape.

I'm sorry to belabor the point, but here's what he actually asked in his OP:


The responses are going to be rather one-sided, due to the obvious. So don't worry, he'll get plenty of "how I overcame adversity". And yet what he asked for was perspective. Not a word one usually associates with white-washing.

But perhaps you're right, and all the OP wants to hear is happy stories of recovery and redemption. In fact, feel free to encourage him to go back to carefree rope soloing with no backup systems, which seems to be his first instinct.

But something tells me that if those who cannot speak here could be heard... you'd sure get some perspective then. The OP got a second chance. Not everyone does. Food for thought.

GO

I'm sorry to belabor the point, but here's what he actually asked in his OP:


The responses are going to be rather one-sided, due to the obvious. So don't worry, he'll get plenty of "how I overcame adversity". And yet what he asked for was perspective. Not a word one usually associates with white-washing.

But perhaps you're right, and all the OP wants to hear is happy stories of recovery and redemption. In fact, feel free to encourage him to go back to carefree rope soloing with no backup systems, which seems to be his first instinct.

But something tells me that if those who cannot speak here could be heard... you'd sure get some perspective then. The OP got a second chance. Not everyone does. Food for thought.

GO

Do you really believe the results of your poll? I don't believe that anywhere near 49% of all climbers have decked. Of the dozens of climbers I know, I'll bet that no more than 1 or 2 have hit the ground.

Drawing strong conclusions about the proportion of climbers who have decked from such a small sample size is ridiculous, but noting that dozens of climbers, including seasoned veterans, have reported personally decking I do see as significant. Just from the numbers here I'd be suspicious of the veracity of your assertion that only 1 or 2 out of "dozens" of climbers have ever decked, but I am coming from a position of curiosity rather than one of authority on the subject. That's why I decided to ask. If the climbers you speak of are gym climbers with a year or so of climbing under their belts, then that may be accurate, but I'm more interested in climbers whose experience more closely relates to mine.

Do you really believe the results of your poll? I don't believe that anywhere near 49% of all climbers have decked. Of the dozens of climbers I know, I'll bet that no more than 1 or 2 have hit the ground.

There may be people I climb with that have never told me about hitting the ground, I guess it's something the average person might not broadcast.

The reasons people keep climbing appear to be more nuanced than those who quit, if only because there are so many choices about how to climb and which risks to take on or avoid. For that reason I think the climbers who are still active are likely to dominate the discussion, but the attrition factor is also significant.

If you think I am foolhardy for focusing my attention on the first line of defense while making choices that lead me closer to harms way and can't see the parallel in yourself then I would suggest you suffer from severe myopia.

This day I boulder harder than ever but have almost completely stopped roped climbing. There is simply noone I can/want to trust. Even free soloing is more appealing, and I solo the occasional route when it feels right.

...If you kill yourself while climbing, you're an idiot. If you have an accident that could have killed you, you're also an idiot. The most important thing about climbing is simply not to die.

Drawing strong conclusions about the proportion of climbers who have decked from such a small sample size is ridiculous, but noting that dozens of climbers, including seasoned veterans, have reported personally decking I do see as significant. Just from the numbers here I'd be suspicious of the veracity of your assertion that only 1 or 2 out of "dozens" of climbers have ever decked, but I am coming from a position of curiosity rather than one of authority on the subject. That's why I decided to ask.

Then I guess I must be myopic indeed. In my climbing career, I've had one time where I seriously fucked up, and had to watch the consequences unfold. I was, I think, suitably hard on myself for my choices. At no point did I think "well, everything I did was fine, I just should have done it better." Instead, from the instant I became aware that things might go south, through the event as it unfolded, and still as years passed, my thoughts were centered around fixing, changing, improving, and how to avoid even finding myself in that situation again.

But that's not my point. It's totally up to you to draw what lessons you see fit from your accident. We each have a different process we go through.

My point is simply that as you gather the input from folks who've come close here, remember to take into consideration the people who aren't here to answer, and the stories they might tell.

GO

I don't think milesenoell's response (as he phrased it, "to focus on the first line of defense") is any different from what we see when a belayer drops a climber. The fault in both cases is user error and no ones first response to a climber getting dropped is that we should all starting having our belays backedup. "Experienced" climbers drop people, or are themselves dropped much more often than TR solo rigs fail but you don't see two-man belay teams becoming the norm.

Instead, we focus on training, understanding proper gear function and checking and then re-checking the rig for proper setup. Which closely mirrors milesenoell's response to his accident.

Oh and relax a bit. You seem to be pretty agitated by what has been, IMO, a rather thoughtful and measured response to his accident.

Wait, so you really are looking for validation? You want to hear that "Everyone does it. It's just something that happens. Don't worry, it sucks, but you'll get through it, just like we did." Is that it?

I bet I've climbed with 100 people closely enough to know their history. Of them, exactly one (BEC) has decked. Gail, too, but while we've met, I've never actually climbed with her. So I can't join in the chorus of folks saying "It's normal, it happens."

And if it seems I'm being negative, I'm sorry. I'm taking a rather unpopular position, I know, since this is such a fresh accident.

Let me just be clear that on a personal level, I'm very glad you're ok, and I trust that you'll make whatever changes/choices are right for you.

GO

Then I guess I must be myopic indeed. In my climbing career, I've had one time where I seriously fucked up, and had to watch the consequences unfold. I was, I think, suitably hard on myself for my choices. At no point did I think "well, everything I did was fine, I just should have done it better." Instead, from the instant I became aware that things might go south, through the event as it unfolded, and still as years passed, my thoughts were centered around fixing, changing, improving, and how to avoid even finding myself in that situation again.

Not your fault.
Not. Your. Fault.
I repeat: Not your fault.

I think for the old folks around here that this thread, while not entirely unexpected, is still fairly horrifying.

In 37 years of climbing I've known one person who's decked actually climbing and that was both someone I've known for that entire time and an incident that happened quite recently. It was also a situation where he wouldn't have fallen if he'd simply free-soloed it instead of dicking around rope-soloing a hard line with a low crux (always a bad idea for roped-soloing). Fortunately he recovered fine. Over that same period I've known two other climbers who died descending fourth class terrain on foot.

By and large, that this many of you have decked says a lot about the training and indoctrination - or the lack thereof - associated with climbing today. In general I would basically lay all this on the rapid introduction to climbing associated with gyms and sport climbing. You get up to speed on the movement faster then you develop the requisite experience and wherewithal that used to come from an extended mentoring period seconding experience [trad] leaders. I'm also guessing distractions associated with today's highly socialized climbing scene plays into this as well (as in the STFUAB factor).

That's not to say all of us old folk haven't had close calls, but actually decking? That was an extremely rare event and rarely one a person lived through from what I've seen and experienced over the years.

Times they are a'changing. Be careful out there...!

I think for the old folks around here that this thread, while not entirely unexpected, is still fairly horrifying.

In 37 years of climbing I've known one person who's decked actually climbing and that was both someone I've known for that entire time and an incident that happened quite recently. It was also a situation where he wouldn't have fallen if he'd simply free-soloed it instead of dicking around rope-soloing a hard line with a low crux (always a bad idea for roped-soloing). Fortunately he recovered fine. Over that same period I've known two other climbers who died descending fourth class terrain on foot.

By and large, that this many of you have decked says a lot about the training and indoctrination - or the lack thereof - associated with climbing today. In general I would basically lay all this on the rapid introduction to climbing associated with gyms and sport climbing. You get up to speed on the movement faster then you develop the requisite experience and wherewithal that used to come from an extended mentoring period seconding experience [trad] leaders. I'm also guessing distractions associated with today's highly socialized climbing scene plays into this as well (as in the STFUAB factor).

That's not to say all of us old folk haven't had close calls, but actually decking? That was an extremely rare event and rarely one a person lived through from what I've seen and experienced over the years.

Times they are a'changing. Be careful out there...!

It seems to me that I was spared much suffering in my accident, not the least of which in respect to not having another person involved to blame or doubt. The outpouring of support I have received and the relatively minor nature of my injuries in light of the danger of the situation have encouraged a deep sense of gratitude.

I have a four year old son and I have spent a lot of time trying to reconcile my passion for high risk pursuits like climbing and cycling, both of which have shown a clear potential to take my life and mobility, with my obligations as a father. I spent quite a while going over my options as I settled into the TR solo system I used, and it was not for lack of knowing it was a possibility that I chose not to use a second device or back up knots. I only recently got a helmet and still haven't used it except for when I am aid climbing.

I knowingly passed up a number of options to increase my safety that could have saved me, and so your attitude about killing yourself climbing reflecting on your choices (as I interpret your comment about being an idiot if you kill yourself climbing) definitely resonates with me. If I had died it would have certainly reflected on those decisions in ways I am not comfortable with.

After some reflection I have decided that I will be adding redundancy to my system, whether as a second device or back-up knots I haven't decided yet.

I don't get this. How were you spared suffering while you almost killed yourself ON YOUR OWN? I, personally, would be spared suffering if the accident wouldn't be my fault and I thus had someone to blame.

I don't think milesenoell's response (as he phrased it, "to focus on the first line of defense") is any different from what we see when a belayer drops a climber. The fault in both cases is user error and no ones first response to a climber getting dropped is that we should all starting having our belays backedup. "Experienced" climbers drop people, or are themselves dropped much more often than TR solo rigs fail but you don't see two-man belay teams becoming the norm.

Instead, we focus on training, understanding proper gear function and checking and then re-checking the rig for proper setup. Which closely mirrors milesenoell's response to his accident.

I would just like to raise the point, obvious though it may be, that there are those who are not on rc.com because they decked and died, or were so injured, either physically or emotionally, that they can no longer climb.

Those people deserve a voice. Though they cannot answer your question - it would be wise of you to take heed of them, too.

GO

Cracklover, I think you are being a little harsh on the OP re "seeking validation." If anyone had a traumatic experience in any walk of life it is natural to ask peers whether they had such an experience and how they dealt with it.

I do take your point that in this case asking for responses necessarily gives a skewed sample, i.e. some who decked aren't here to comment. Here, the OP is still with us thankfully and he is seeking input from those in a similar situation. Full marks to him for seeking some input.

Note, the sample is also skewed because the surviving "deckers" most likely to post here are those that continued to climb, not those that gave it up. Most of the stories show that the "deckers" feel lucky to have survived, and some, but not all, show some soul searching on the point of what they could have done differently.

I wish the OP well and commend him on seeking input from others. If it is the right choice for him I hope he continues to be able to enjoy climbing (safely).

Cracklover, I think you are being a little harsh on the OP re "seeking validation." If anyone had a traumatic experience in any walk of life it is natural to ask peers whether they had such an experience and how they dealt with it.

No, I am not looking for validation. I am looking at system failures.

When my system failed it lead me to ask a lot of questions of myself about what contributed to the failure. It seems a natural next step to ask others.

and in regard to this:

Yes, this is exactly the myopia I was referring to. If you fuck up again I'd hope that the thought would occur to you that despite your efforts to ensure safety you knowingly engaged in a completely unnecessary risk who's costs are paid in no small part by those around you.

Overall I think it's kind of telling that people seem to be expecting this to be about me trying to garner sympathy and support. As I mentioned earlier, my head was largely spared the trauma that so many other climbers go through. My accident was not very severe and support has come at every turn, so I am really not seeking support here. I am seeking the perspective borne of experience as I re-evaluate my approach to climbing.

PS--Normally I resonate quite a bit with your posts Gabe, but your recent tone is surprising to me. I am a bit suspicious that you are reading something into my posts that relates to your own experiences rather than mine.

I think for the old folks around here that this thread, while not entirely unexpected, is still fairly horrifying.

Do you really think he's into carefree rope soloing? You talk like this whole experience was nothing for him.

By and large, that this many of you have decked says a lot about the training and indoctrination - or the lack thereof - associated with climbing today. In general I would basically lay all this on the rapid introduction to climbing associated with gyms and sport climbing. You get up to speed on the movement faster then you develop the requisite experience and wherewithal that used to come from an extended mentoring period seconding experience [trad] leaders. I'm also guessing distractions associated with today's highly socialized climbing scene plays into this as well (as in the STFUAB factor).

That's not to say all of us old folk haven't had close calls, but actually decking? That was an extremely rare event and rarely one a person lived through from what I've seen and experienced over the years.

Times they are a'changing. Be careful out there...!

The trouble is that the simple act of people here replying with their stories, because they're still climbing, creates the story that decking is just a part of climbing. A story that I vehemently disagree with.

By and large, that this many of you have decked says a lot about the training and indoctrination - or the lack thereof - associated with climbing today. In general I would basically lay all this on the rapid introduction to climbing associated with gyms and sport climbing. You get up to speed on the movement faster then you develop the requisite experience and wherewithal that used to come from an extended mentoring period seconding experience [trad] leaders.

there are also many more climbers these days ...

is the %-tage of deckers of the general climbing population increasing?

that said ive never seen anyone decking after the 2nd bolt or piece of gear... i dont consider falling on the first bolt and touching the ground with rope stretch "decking" ... not the way some climbs are bolted

There are so many basic skills the vast majority of climbers lack these days. Down climbing is one of them. When I first learned how to lead, down climbing was just something you learned how to do. It's not easy, it can be down right scary.

This is the #1 physical / movement skill that should be practiced as much as possible when in a gym by anyone contemplating leading trad. When I've taught basic climbing skills through a series of top ropes, any time someone couldn't make it up the next climb in the progression I'd have them go back and work on downclimbing the previous climb until they could downclimb it proficiently - they'd then invariably hike the one they previously failed on first try.

if enigma can solo downclimb 5.15 with one arm, anyone can do it. You don't have to fight gravity!

+1

I was reading "My fault" and thought wtf?

Out of the 30-40 different people I have climbed with over my 4 year career (I know I'm a n00b compared to you 20+ year vets), there are only three that I know of who have decked; myself and two others.