In my local climbing centre there was an accident recently where someone used a bowline. It failed on him 30ft up and he died two days later in hospital

This person was in his seventy s he was very experienced and even though staff at the centre told him several times to use a figure 8 he sadly didn't listen he used his bowline and NO stopper.

Let this be a lesson to all. In my opinion the figure 8 and stopper should be the the knot used.

Its not worth the risk

In my local climbing centre there was an accident recently where someone used a bowline. It failed on him 30ft up and he died two days later in hospital

This person was in his seventy s he was very experienced and even though staff at the centre told him several times to use a figure 8 he sadly didn't listen he used his bowline and NO stopper.

Let this be a lesson to all. In my opinion the figure 8 and stopper should be the the knot used.

Its not worth the risk

In my local climbing centre there was an accident recently where someone used a bowline. It failed on him 30ft up and he died two days later in hospital

This person was in his seventy s he was very experienced and even though staff at the centre told him several times to use a figure 8 he sadly didn't listen he used his bowline and NO stopper.

Let this be a lesson to all. In my opinion the figure 8 and stopper should be the the knot used.

Its not worth the risk

You appear to have an entirely unqualified opinion.

I'm not saying I'm an expert I've been climbing for three years mostly indoors but every climbing centre i have climbed in the UK will not let you climb unless you use a figure 8 with a stopper.

I'm not saying I'm an expert I've been climbing for three years mostly indoors but every climbing centre i have climbed in the UK will not let you climb unless you use a figure 8 with a stopper.

In my local climbing centre there was an accident recently where someone used a bowline. It failed on him 30ft up and he died two days later in hospital

This person was in his seventys he was very experienced and even though staff at the centre told him several times to use a figure 8 he sadly didn't listen he used his bowline and NO stopper.

A 'bowline' in itself is not a suitable climbing knot - it capsizes to form a slip knot, and comes loose easily.
...

Which is your preferred method for tying in? Also, if you use bowline, how you tie it off? Stopper in the loop, or above the knot, like when you tie off the fig8.

Question two: I've read that the bowline is less safe than the fig8, but way easier to untie. For general one-pitch sport climbing, bolts spreaded at 3-4 meter distances is the bowline safe enough, or stick to the good old fig8 (which is pita to loosen after projecting a route)

Ever had déjà vu? :) Try this: www.trailspace.com/forums/climbing/topics/25044.html - that was nearly ten years ago!

I'm not fussed which knot is used as long as it’s tied correctly. Knot strength is not an issue: if it was we'd be needing stronger ropes. In the UK most clubs will accept a bowline with a stopper (double overhand) tied into the loop, but a simple bowline is not a good climbing knot. It 'capsizes' far too easily and becomes a slip knot. A more important discussion might be 'Do we need a stopper knot?'

My instructor friends always say 'leave enough end to tie a stopper - then you don't need one'. I would argue 'always tie a stopper'. It is a back-up, 'belt and braces', if the tie-in knot is mis-tied it may save your life, but the main reason is that if a novice sees you doing it they will do it - and it certainly might save their life.

Rock climbing on a nice day is very different from mountaineering, possibly freezing cold, numb fingers, and taking a fall on a wet rope with light fading. Time can be critical to survival. The last thing you want is an iced up figure eight you can't undo. If you want to read some seriously well thought out advice on the topic, I'd recommend 'The Mountaineering Handbook' by Craig Connally. It's a great book to dip into, especially when it's raining and the climbing's cancelled! :).

My preference is usually a yosemite bowline with a stopper. It's easy to tie, easy to untie, easy to inspect and it's protected: you can even tie it quickly one-handed. However, I sometimes climb with an Australian who always uses a re-threaded bowline plus stopper. That ends up like a bowline on a bight, a bit like re-threading a figure eight but with two loops through the harness (some say that two loops reduces wear and strain on the harness). It won't capsize but it does use more rope and that has been an issue more than once!

It's bad form to clip in to the belayer's loop, but in an emergency it's better than dying! This will 'ringload' the knot and a figure eight may fail, they should never be ringloaded (not a problem for the modified bowline). Finally, which way do you thread your harness? It's something that's rarely mentioned, but good practice suggests 'ALWAYS thread from the top'. When you're tired it's easy to make mistakes, if you're stressed as well you can do things you just don't believe you did. It's surprisingly easy to miss a loop: I've seen people do it, I've done it myself. If you do, it's far safer to be hanging from the waistband than upside down from the leg loops....

A 'bowline' in itself is not a suitable climbing knot - it capsizes to form a slip knot, and comes loose easily. There are a number of bowline derived arrangements however, which are suitable.

It is unusual for a UK club or centre to be prescriptive in this respect. There may well be some, but here are the listed requirements of a number from their websites:

The Castle Climbing Centre (London):
Adults with climbing experience may register to climb unsupervised at The Castle. In order to register you must be able to:
Put on a sit harness correctly.
Attach a rope to the harness using either a rethreaded figure of eight or a bowline knot.
Use a belay device to secure a falling climber.

Redpoint Birmingham:
WHEN CLIMBING
• The tall walls are designed to be climbed using a rope for
protection. Solo climbing is not acceptable on these walls.
Always use a rope to protect yourself on these climbs.
• Always use a safety harness to attach yourself to the rope.
• Always tie the rope directly into the harness using a suitable
climbing knot. Clipping in with a karabiner is not acceptable

The Cragg, Mid Suffolk Leisure Centre:
Sign a form to say you are competent and take responsibility for yourself and anyone climbing with you.

High Sports (Many centres):
Unsupervised climbing:
Before you climb without supervision we expect you to be competent in the use of, a safety harness, a suitable knot to attach a rope to the harness and a belay device to arrest a falling climber using a rope.

The Foundry, Sheffield
Can you put on a climbing harness correctly? .....
Can you attach a rope to your harness using a suitable climbing knot? ....

The Edge (Sheffield)
- be able to put on a sit harness correctly and attach a rope directly using an approved knot
- be able to safely belay a partner using an approved belay device

Even the British Mountaineering Council simply says:
4.2 Belaying
a. Connect self and others to the rope
b. Utilise belay systems at the top of a climbing wall
c. Attach self and others to the belay system and abseil ropes

and why do all these bowline accidents keep on happening ... i dont see that many accidents with a fig 8 .. and in NA anyways its a more common knot, especially for noobs

"Knot going to read that either."

Magik! (Bet you did tho.... )

'wonder' no more...

John Long recently suffered a double compound ankle fracture because his bowline wasn't tied properly, I'm guessing he's tied a bowline once or twice before too.

http://www.rockandice.com/...njured-in-groundfall

I'd say if it can happen to John Long, it can happen to anyone.
Figure 8 > Bowline
Wishing him a speedy recovery.