|
|
|
|
knudenoggin
Dec 13, 2012, 1:28 AM
Post #101 of 113
(6550 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 6, 2004
Posts: 596
|
moedersin wrote: John Long recently suffered a double compound ankle fracture because his bowline wasn't tied properly, I'm guessing he's tied a bowline once or twice before too. http://www.rockandice.com/...njured-in-groundfall I'd say if it can happen to John Long, it can happen to anyone. Figure 8 > Bowline Wishing him a speedy recovery.
The speed of information seems proportionate to its lightness of facts!
At least, in this present case, I've searched (the Taco, mainly) for some
statement from this surviving, well-initiated rockclimber,
as to what exactly occurred. There was a cryptic statement
put forward allegedly on his behalf that the accident resulted
"from an unfinished knot" --that inexact wording
is feritle for speculation, but for knowledge, not so much.
*kN*
As I posted @ST:
In reply to: In reply to: **I guess** "unfinished" could mean 2 things: But, for crying out loud, WHY ARE WE GUESSING?! The conveyance of "information" via the Net is so damn fast when unweighted by care in checking facts ... . Already, there is another "bowline came untied" article fueling lines of R&I, no doubt building some preponderance of evidence after the fatal UK case, about which RGold & I tried to point out that certain key bits of information --i.p., whether in fact any actual >>knot<< was tied-- were unknown. HERE, we have connection to the (thankfully, surviving) user; how about actual-factual details, vs. the usual this-appears-to-support-my-agenda spewing? *kN*
(This post was edited by knudenoggin on Dec 13, 2012, 6:34 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
notapplicable
Dec 13, 2012, 1:45 AM
Post #102 of 113
(6541 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
|
healyje wrote: Could just have easily been an unfinished figure eight - it has nothing whatsoever to do with having been a bowline.
Possibly more likely to have been. Both times I've encountered unfinished knots IRL, they were figure-8's.
|
|
|
|
|
iknowfear
Dec 13, 2012, 10:25 AM
Post #103 of 113
(6497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2004
Posts: 670
|
notapplicable wrote: healyje wrote: Could just have easily been an unfinished figure eight - it has nothing whatsoever to do with having been a bowline. Possibly more likely to have been. Both times I've encountered unfinished knots IRL, they were figure-8's.
could have been a wrong munter, as well, I guess.
|
|
|
|
|
JasonsDrivingForce
Dec 13, 2012, 7:09 PM
Post #104 of 113
(6462 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2009
Posts: 687
|
If it is in a gym then whatever they require you to use. If it is anywhere else or if the gym allows both then whatever you are most comfortable with.
I am most comfortable with a figure 8 because that is what all of the gyms I have climbed in require and therefore it is also what I am most comfortable with outside.
Both knots are safe when tied correctly. The key is to use the one that you are most likely to tie correctly. Typically that is the one you use most often.
|
|
|
|
|
JasonsDrivingForce
Dec 13, 2012, 7:24 PM
Post #105 of 113
(6454 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2009
Posts: 687
|
notapplicable wrote: healyje wrote: Could just have easily been an unfinished figure eight - it has nothing whatsoever to do with having been a bowline. Possibly more likely to have been. Both times I've encountered unfinished knots IRL, they were figure-8's.
What dictates an unfinished figure 8 knot? I assume it is more than just forgetting what we typically refer to as the "Finishing Knot" or ""Stopper Knot" or a "Yosemite Finish"?
Is a knot considered unfinished only when both loops of the figure 8 are not done or only if the second loop is not completed? Will a figure 8 support a load in some cases if just one of the figure 8 loops is completed?
I am just curious as to what stage of tying the figure 8 people were at when they failed to complete it? Is it just that they never even began the figure 8 or that they completed only a portion of it?
(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Dec 13, 2012, 7:32 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
notapplicable
Dec 13, 2012, 7:41 PM
Post #106 of 113
(6440 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
|
JasonsDrivingForce wrote: notapplicable wrote: healyje wrote: Could just have easily been an unfinished figure eight - it has nothing whatsoever to do with having been a bowline. Possibly more likely to have been. Both times I've encountered unfinished knots IRL, they were figure-8's. What dictates and unfinished figure 8 knot? I assume it is more than just forgetting what we typically refer to as the "Finishing Knot" or ""Stopper Knot" or a "Yosemite Finish"? Is a knot considered unfinished only when both loops of the figure 8 are not done or only if the second loop is not completed? Will a figure 8 support a load in some cases if just one of the figure 8 loops is completed? I am just curious as to what stage of tying the figure 8 people were at when they failed to complete it? Is it just that they never even began the figure 8 or that they completed only a portion of it?
In both case the rope was simply threaded thru the tie-in points and the figure-8 never retraced. I think this is the most common error that is likely to result in injury/death. I doubt many people stop halfway thru the retracing process (I'm sure it's not unheard of though) and a missing backup or finish is not likely to result in knot failure with the figure-8.
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Dec 13, 2012, 7:56 PM
Post #107 of 113
(6432 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
if you have a well done figure 8 with a fist full of tail you dont need any backup ...
i wont speak to the bowline because everyone has their own personal favorite variation and finish ... which tends to make partner checks a woozy 
use whatever knot you want ... but there does seem to be more boo boos with the bowline even by some very experienced people
|
|
|
|
|
granite_grrl
Dec 13, 2012, 11:45 PM
Post #108 of 113
(6392 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 15084
|
bearbreeder wrote: but there does seem to be more boo boos with the bowline even by some very experienced people
Probably because most experienced people tend to use bowlines.
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Dec 14, 2012, 12:35 AM
Post #110 of 113
(6374 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
I suspect most experienced climbers use figure eights unless they climb steep lines or roofs. Using a figure eight in those circumstances can surely be done, but is a lousy use of one's time and energy. So I would suspect most experienced climber screwups with knots would be with figure eights, not bowlines.
Also, not all bowlines are remotely equal - some are more prone to screwing up or not finishing than others. My double bowline with a Czech finish is all but immune to both as it's either it's initially tied or it's just a straight piece of rope through your tie-in points and the fact I go through the tie-in points twice on the way to finishing it adds a kind of built in check of sorts when tying it.
Pretty much the only way to screw it up would be to get slightly more than halfway through with it so it was stable enough to not be a straight piece of rope, then get interrupted to some other task or good-looking distraction, and never return to completing it. Could happen I suppose, but after this many years of lead roped-soling I'm pretty relentless in the self-checking my tie-in.
(This post was edited by healyje on Dec 14, 2012, 12:39 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
EdBustamante
Dec 14, 2012, 1:50 PM
Post #111 of 113
(6334 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 6, 2012
Posts: 19
|
Figure 8 is all I have ever used a knot that is eiser to untie dose not seem like a good quality .
|
|
|
|
|
herites
Dec 14, 2012, 1:58 PM
Post #112 of 113
(6332 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 10, 2011
Posts: 210
|
It's been a while since I asked, nowaday I use that knot, with a slightly different finish.
(This post was edited by herites on Dec 14, 2012, 2:15 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
marc801
Dec 14, 2012, 5:08 PM
Post #113 of 113
(6308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 1, 2005
Posts: 2806
|
EdBustamante wrote: Figure 8 is all I have ever used a knot that is eiser [sic] to untie dose [sic] not seem like a good quality .
|
|
|
|
|
|
