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ianmeister89
Mar 3, 2010, 7:26 AM
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I was hacking through some of the threads on new anchor techniques, and came across the so-called mooselette. Such a strange name. I wasn't able to find any pictures of it on the web so i could dissect it for myself, anybody care to share an image?
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bandycoot
Mar 3, 2010, 8:26 AM
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While these overly engineered anchors are novel, there is essentially nothing practical about them. Does anyone actually take the time to build these things? Equalize two pieces, have a third backup, done.
Throw an equalette on two pieces, then back it up in the best appropriate manner:
http://pullharder.org/...belay-anchor-setups/
Josh
edit: fixed link
(This post was edited by bandycoot on Mar 3, 2010, 8:42 PM)
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boymeetsrock
Mar 3, 2010, 2:28 PM
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Nice blog post Josh. Thanks for sharing that.
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moose_droppings
Mar 3, 2010, 4:03 PM
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Does anyone that criticizes these simple anchors actually take the short time it takes to try one? An equallette can be a little stifling to someone the first time or two also.
Toolbox full of tools dude.
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bandycoot
Mar 3, 2010, 5:39 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: Does anyone that criticizes these simple anchors actually take the short time it takes to try one? An equallette can be a little stifling to someone the first time or two also. Toolbox full of tools dude.
Nope, I haven't tried it. I stopped carrying a cordelette years ago and haven't looked back. It's just something extra, heavy, bulky, and unnecessary. It's like bringing a 2nd belay device, or something dedicated to clipping you into the anchor. The equalette I'll bring on some climbs, but even that stays on the ground quite often. I understand the "toolbox full of tools," but I don't need a reciprocating saw to cut my fingernails.
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jbrown2
Mar 3, 2010, 5:42 PM
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I think when building this thing youd probably get the "Hey (insert name) are you ok?" one minute later. "Hey! Are you there?" one minute later. "AM I ON BELAY" one minute later. "What The F Are You Doing. I'm Freezing down here!"
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moose_droppings
Mar 3, 2010, 6:52 PM
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Isn't saying I quit carrying a cordelette a long time ago and then saying you sometimes carry an equalette kind of double talk. I mean, aren't they both just a long piece of accessory cord. You could configure either with the same piece of cord.
For what it's worth. I tie in with the rope most of the time. I've personally have used both the mooselette and the equalette and find the equalette more complex, but that's only from the experience of taking the time to learn and use both. I've also read most of the threads about the equalette and it's main criticism from many others was its complication. It's simply a matter of what one gets used to by using it or not.
If mooselette = reciprocating saw to cut fingernails,
Then equalette = table saw to make a toothpick out of a telephone pole.
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Lazlo
Mar 3, 2010, 7:28 PM
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What's the point of the moosolette?
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shoo
Mar 3, 2010, 7:32 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: Does anyone that criticizes these simple anchors actually take the short time it takes to try one?
Why would I do that? It would take HOURS!!!!
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bandycoot
Mar 3, 2010, 7:39 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: Isn't saying I quit carrying a cordelette a long time ago and then saying you sometimes carry an equalette kind of double talk. I mean, aren't they both just a long piece of accessory cord. You could configure either with the same piece of cord. For what it's worth. I tie in with the rope most of the time. I've personally have used both the mooselette and the equalette and find the equalette more complex, but that's only from the experience of taking the time to learn and use both. I've also read most of the threads about the equalette and it's main criticism from many others was its complication. It's simply a matter of what one gets used to by using it or not. If mooselette = reciprocating saw to cut fingernails, Then equalette = table saw to make a toothpick out of a telephone pole.
You must be trolling if you claim there is no significant difference between a 48" Mammut dyneema sling and 20' (+?) of 7mm perlon.
As for the equalette being too complex, we all have our own opinion. My personal opinion is that the equalette is the easiest way possible to achieve redundant equalization between two pieces, and most people I've showed it to figured it out instantly and switched over from whatever method they were using.
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bhp
Mar 3, 2010, 8:22 PM
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Cordelette and equalette are configurations of anchors, and are independent of the material they're tied in. In fact the Long anchors book introduces the equalette as tied with 7mm cord. I recently got an 8' 10mm dyneema sling, and I've used it in both configurations.
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bandycoot
Mar 3, 2010, 8:38 PM
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I understand that. I fixed the link above. I had intended to link directly to the equalette configuration that my friends and I use. I specifically use a 48" dyneema sling from Mammut for my equalette anchors, and this is much lighter and less bulky than perlon. Most people use perlon or something similar for their cordelettes, like in the picture of the mooselette above. Still, a 4' sling is shorter than an 8' sling, and the 4' equalette is adequate for most uses I've needed it for.
I've been curious about the strength of the equalette configuration on the dyneema and I've contacted Adatesman multiple times to see if he would be willing to pull test some used equalettes but he has always ignored my inquiries. Does anyone know someone capable of doing such a test?
Josh
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moose_droppings
Mar 3, 2010, 9:37 PM
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That's a sliding X with limiter knots, not an equalette. I was trying to imagine how far apart your pro was if you were using a 4' sling with two OH knots and two CH in it on three pieces.
I've used a simple sliding X with limiter knots many times. Your right, sliding X is very simple. The mooselette is just a sliding W with a couple extra knots in it for redundancy.
I'm in no way saying it's an end all anchor design. it's just one simple way to get pretty good equalization that can adjust to different directions of pull utilizing 3 pieces of pro if you ever need to.
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caughtinside
Mar 3, 2010, 9:52 PM
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bandycoot wrote: I understand that. I fixed the link above. I had intended to link directly to the equalette configuration that my friends and I use. I specifically use a 48" dyneema sling from Mammut for my equalette anchors, and this is much lighter and less bulky than perlon. Most people use perlon or something similar for their cordelettes, like in the picture of the mooselette above. Still, a 4' sling is shorter than an 8' sling, and the 4' equalette is adequate for most uses I've needed it for. I've been curious about the strength of the equalette configuration on the dyneema and I've contacted Adatesman multiple times to see if he would be willing to pull test some used equalettes but he has always ignored my inquiries. Does anyone know someone capable of doing such a test? Josh
basically, you're looking at the breaking strength of the mammut 8mm at the overhand knot, yeah? I think Fish has pull tested that.
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adatesman
Mar 3, 2010, 10:50 PM
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bandycoot
Mar 3, 2010, 11:08 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: That's a sliding X with limiter knots, not an equalette.
I've got John Long's book sitting by my bed. I'll try to remember to check, but I believe that what I have linked is EXACTLY what the equalette is. I think I even got the idea of using a 48" dyneema sling because that's what he had in the book. There was a more complex clusterf*** called the quadrelette or "quad" or something, but that's something else I've written off as just way too much overkill.
Does anyone know if Fish publishes results like that, or should I just e-mail him and ask?
Josh
Edit: I want to know the breaking strength at the knots in 2+ year old abused dyneema.
(This post was edited by bandycoot on Mar 3, 2010, 11:16 PM)
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caughtinside
Mar 3, 2010, 11:10 PM
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bandycoot wrote: moose_droppings wrote: That's a sliding X with limiter knots, not an equalette. I've got John Long's book sitting by my bed. I'll try to remember to check, but I believe that what I have linked is EXACTLY what the equalette is. I think I even got the idea of using a 48" dyneema sling because that's what he had in the book. There was a more complex clusterfuck called the quadrelette or "quad" or something, but something else I've written off as just way too much overkill. Does anyone know if Fish publishes results like that, or should I just e-mail him and ask? Josh
I emailed fish, I'll let you know if I hear anything. I don't think he publishes stuff, but he has a stack of stuff he's snapped in his shop with the failure load written on them.
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caughtinside
Mar 3, 2010, 11:13 PM
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bandycoot wrote: moose_droppings wrote: That's a sliding X with limiter knots, not an equalette. I've got John Long's book sitting by my bed. I'll try to remember to check, but I believe that what I have linked is EXACTLY what the equalette is. I think I even got the idea of using a 48" dyneema sling because that's what he had in the book. There was a more complex clusterfuck called the quadrelette or "quad" or something, but something else I've written off as just way too much overkill. Does anyone know if Fish publishes results like that, or should I just e-mail him and ask? Josh Edit: I want to know the breaking strength at the knots in 2+ year old abused dyneema.
i'd only add that healyje has some results (from adatesman? I forget...) that show unknotted 8mm sling material degrading year by year. SOmething like 22kn new, 18kn 1yr old 15kn 2 or 3 years old. Don't quote me on those because it's a rough recollection, but after I heard it I stopped using the 8mm skinnies and went to all 12mm dyneema or 5/8ths nylon (cheap, dynamic and strong.) But I still think a system like yours is superior, as long as you frequently replace the sling.
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bandycoot
Mar 3, 2010, 11:19 PM
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I do replace them since I heard about the degradation. The first pair lasted around 2+ years (now 3+yrs old sitting in the bin), the current pair has been going for close to a year and will be replaced soon. I'd be happy to send in both pairs along with a new pair as a control to be tested to anyone willing and able to pull them. I'm very curious about the strength over time.
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bandycoot
Mar 3, 2010, 11:39 PM
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Do you have an example of what your definition of an equalette is? Just curious since we're apparently not on the same page on that one.
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ptlong
Mar 4, 2010, 12:08 AM
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Josh, a knot limited sliding X and an equalette are pretty similar, but there are subtle differences. The main difference is that the equalette does not include the twist that makes the "X" in a sliding X, but relies upon the use of two carabiners instead.
For a photo or diagram you'll need a computer that has access to the website known as Google.
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moose_droppings
Mar 4, 2010, 12:19 AM
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Usually tied with a 20' cord and uses 3-4 pieces of pro. This one is shown with an 8 used to tie off excess/
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bandycoot
Mar 4, 2010, 12:38 AM
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Moose,
It seems that the only difference in our definition of an equalette is that I use the sliding x at the bottom instead of two carabiners, one on each strand. Outside of that, the "equalette" can be used on 2, 3, or 4 pieces. However, after the first two equalization becomes questionable between all three so I don't see the benefit. I just equalize two pieces and include a third as a backup and dispense with pretending at equalization of that third piece. It's much quicker and simpler that way. I agree, using the equalette to "equalize" 3-4 pieces is overly complex and and in my opinion a complete waste of time. However, as described in that blog post my friends and I never do that. We simplify and move quickly. Thanks for the picture. I remember that from the book now. It's been a while since I read it and I thought there were examples in the book where he equalizes two pieces. Maybe there aren't?
Josh
(This post was edited by bandycoot on Mar 4, 2010, 12:41 AM)
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