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k.l.k
Apr 12, 2010, 4:30 PM
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congrats. easy steep mileage is the way to go.
can't u get yr partners to carry the gear and rope? it's the gunks, it's not like the approaches are serious, and you have a genuine excuse.
do be careful with inserts that replace yr old insole, as they are going to reduce the overall volume of the shoe. be sure that you aren't crowding yr toes.
i'd think about investing in a full shank boot. you can get all fritz wiessner on the place.
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granite_grrl
Apr 12, 2010, 4:50 PM
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Hey Gail, I have an old pair of hiking boots that I love. They're nice a stiff offering way more support than ny approach shoe that I have. I don't wear them in the summer any more because I found them too hot, but a heavy duty pair of hiking boot might be what you need for approaches now.
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onceahardman
Apr 12, 2010, 10:00 PM
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Hi Gail...
congrats on leading well.
A couple pieces of advice...ICE after climbing! stick your feet in the beer cooler if you have to. As soon as possible after climbing/hiking down.
Also, consider a stiff, old-school Norwegian welt hiking boot for stiffness with a good-sized toe box as an approach shoe.
Also, although I'm pretty sure you'll hate this idea, have your partner hike down and pick you up in the car over by the uberfall.
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gblauer
Moderator
Apr 13, 2010, 9:26 PM
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I PM'd Onceahardman about some of his advice. I think his input would be useful for anyone with injuries, so, with his permission, I am posting it here:
Can you tell me more about icing? Yes. it will relieve pain and inflammation through physical, rather than chemical, treatment.
SHould I ice every time I climb? I think you should ice as soon as possible after climbing, for a minimum of twenty minutes. I think you will notice less pain (NOT no pain) the next day. It may allow you to climb on consecutive days.
How long should I ice? At least 20 minutes. More is OK, but check it every 20 minutes, that you aren't getting frostbite.
Will I have to ice forever? Ice as long as you are getting benefit from it.
What's causing my pain? What a question. Forgive me for being so flippant, but ultimately, IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER. Knowing the cause does not necessarily improve you odds of healing. Better (IMO) to focus on the things which make it better. Do more of those. Also focus on the things which make it worse. Do fewer of those.
Will I ever wear shoes? Maybe. focus on improving, and the chances of wearing shoes will improve.
I am also trying to figure out how to optimize OTC pain/inflammation relief. Do I load up before I climb? I don't like that approach. You are not a professional athlete making a million dollars a year for a relatively short career. You need these feet to last. Pay attention to them.
Do I take it every day at a lower dosage? Again, I don't like the western medicine approach to chronic pain.
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gblauer
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Apr 25, 2010, 1:52 PM
Post #105 of 128
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It's been a few weeks since Mitch put the metal plates in my climbing shoes. I am taking the time to learn what I can/cannot do with my new feet.
Yesterday I warmed up on "Thin Slabs Direct" at the gunks. The operative words are "thin" and "slabs". Not a good combination of climbing for my toes! Although I lead the climb and was ultimately happy, the slabby bottom was really hard on my big toes. Contrast that with our later climbs; "Directissima" and "Doubleissima". Both are overhanging jug hauls and with variations run at about 10a-10c. My feet were so much more comfortable on those climbs than on the slab climbs earlier (we did "sente" as well). So, from now on, I avoid slab climbing until something changes in my feet.
I have resumed gym climbing and much prefer running laps up the "box" (the overhanging section of the gym) rather than vertical. It's easier on my fingers and my toes. I have also learned that I can cut back on my gym climbing (so much added stress to fingers, toes and other joints) and actually increase my overall strength by continuing with the personal trainer. Initially I figured I would see the personal training until I could get back to climbing. Now I can see the value that I am getting and will work with him in addition to climbing. I think, for the sake of my fingers and toes, I will limit gym climbing to 2 days per week.
It's thrilling to be out on the rock, when just a few short weeks ago the Doc told me to find a new sport. I am enjoying my climbing more than ever. I am finding that my climbing is strong and my lead head is really right where it should be.
I see another foot specialist tomorrow; I am hoping to get a definitive diagnosis as to the cause of my pain. I am still having a lot of pain when I walk. Will keep you posted!
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mojomonkey
Apr 25, 2010, 5:03 PM
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gblauer wrote: I see another foot specialist tomorrow; I am hoping to get a definitive diagnosis as to the cause of my pain. I am still having a lot of pain when I walk. Will keep you posted!
Great to hear you are finding out what you can climb. Hopefully the new specialist can help you progress even more.
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onceahardman
Apr 25, 2010, 11:10 PM
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WOW!!! Gail, that's awesome. You are witnessing functional improvement.
I'm really happy you are focusing on the things which make it worse (slabs) and staying away from those. You are focusing on things which make it better (functionally), that is, climbing overhangs, and doing more of those. And you are having FUN!!!
I know it's hard, but I only wish you weren't so convinced you need a "definitive diagnosis as to the cause of your pain", since, as you can see, you can get functionally much better without one.
If you are asking another surgeon, I fear the answer will be, "you need surgery". That's what they do.
If you ask me, you need to keep enjoying life, and keep climbing overhangs. Good thing the Gunks are your home turf!
Keep working on perfecting the "Gail Protocol" for improving this condition. Be systematic. You will probably end up knowing more about managing this condition that any "specialist". So far, it seems to me, you and Mitch are doing better than modern medicine.
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gblauer
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May 17, 2010, 10:13 PM
Post #108 of 128
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From bad to worse.
I am continuing to climb, at the gym and at the Gunks. I know to stay off of slabs (Never Never Land was a big mistake) and savor the overhanging climbs.
Unfortunately my feet hurt during every thing I do. My feet hurt when I walk, when I am sleeping, when I am climbing, when I am at rest.
One MRI later, it's been determined that I have sesamoid bone arthritis in both feet. And...here's the kicker...the surgery that they did to give me more mobility in my toes, has in fact made my quality of life (pain) much worse. Now they are saying they want to fuse my toes or remove one of the sesamoid bones.
Who wants more surgery? Not I! I am going to continue with my carbon fiber inserts, deal with the pain and keep experimenting with things like MSM and glucosamine. I will keep you posted with my progress.
Surgery will have to wait until I am in so much pain that I can no longer walk.
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ClimbClimb
May 18, 2010, 3:20 AM
Post #109 of 128
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So sorry to hear your feet are not getting better. But it is good to hear you're still climbing and working through the various options.
I hope things start getting better soon.
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Gabel
May 18, 2010, 12:33 PM
Post #110 of 128
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Dear Gail,
So sorry to hear about your feet.
I cannot even begin to understand how hard this must be on you.
I have went through three weeks of heel pain now and it was awful. The thing with feet - and I did not realize this until after my fall - is that you use them ALL THE TIME.
I know you are very serious about your climbing. I imagine climbing is your life.
Onceahardman does have a valid point though. You need your feet to last! Please don't push it.
I do believe that motivation greatly helps with healing. The motivation to get back on the wall, the longing to touch rock makes us strong.
But sometimes, just sometimes, we need to stay away from the rock to let our bodies heal. It is never about this season alone. It's always about all those season after this one.
I am so sorry to hear this discouraging op history. Your feeling of helplessness and disappointment is understandable. I have always been very sceptic in this regard. Once your body is cut open it will remember forever.
I am afraid that I cannot offer more than my best wishes to recovery.
Take care,
Gabriel
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gblauer
Moderator
Jun 7, 2010, 6:22 PM
Post #111 of 128
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A quick update.
Mitch created some custom carbon fiber inserts for my climbing shoes. The great guys at Evolve worked with me and sent me a bunch of shoes to try with my new inserts.
I am very happy to report that the inserts work like a charm. My shoes are incredibly stiff and I can stand of my toes for a reasonable amount of time (once in a stance, I usually end up moving to an outside edge).
I attempted my hardest climb ever (gunks 9+) and took plenty of lead falls doing it. (Please note, I do not consider myself a gunks 9 leader, this was a "hand picked" novelty climb that is totally G rated.) Although my feet aren't great, I am managing to find new ways to climb, new equipment to work with and I have a remarkably updated appreciation for just being able to be on the cliff.
It's all good. :)
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wonderwoman
Jun 7, 2010, 6:42 PM
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So happy to hear, Gail!
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sethg
Jun 7, 2010, 7:33 PM
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Nice!
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Stormeh
Nov 23, 2010, 2:40 AM
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Updates?
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gblauer
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Nov 23, 2010, 3:14 AM
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I am hoping that the gunks season is not over, although I am afraid for the most part it is. I climbed on Saturday and it was lovely, but, as the sun set it just got too cold for me to climb.
With that preamble, I can say that I just finished the gunks season. I climbed at a consistently harder grade than I have in the past. Additionally, I logged more than 375 climbs this year (many of them multi pitch), almost double last years climbing. And we just got back from 2 weeks of climbing in Mexico.
So, how are my feet?
My feet are really terrible. I am only wearing "rocker" shoes for casual and dress shoes. I cannot bend my big toes at all. I know that I am headed for a fusion in both feet, it's just a matter of time.
Interestingly, I have adapted my climbing style to my current feet and I climb with pain that is manageable. I am using the orthotics that Mitch made for me in my rocker shoes and my climbing shoes. I sacrifice sensitivity in my climbing shoes for stiffness. The stiffness allows me to stand on my toes long enough to adjust my feet so that I can take the pressure off my big toes. I adjust my feet without really thinking, it just sort of happens.
So, bottom line: I have arthritis in both big toes that will only get worse. The surgeries that I had were a waste of time, my feet have been so much worse than they were before the surgeries. The best I can do is slow down the arthritis progression by wearing the rocker shoes. I am still passionate about climbing and will continue to climb until the pain is just too much and I have to submit to the fusions. I don't think climbing is accelerating the progression.
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Trixie
Nov 30, 2010, 8:38 AM
Post #116 of 128
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I'm glad you've managed to get back into your climbing and you're managing to climb more than before. Shame it's hurting so much. Just be careful how hard you push yourself. Are you using ay anti-inflam meds?
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gblauer
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Nov 30, 2010, 11:21 AM
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Trixie wrote: Are you using ay anti-inflam meds?
I take Aleve before I climb. Otherwise, I do not take any meds.
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k.l.k
Dec 1, 2010, 3:34 AM
Post #118 of 128
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Hey, glad to see that you've managed yr situation a bit and got to climb. Good attitude.
But since you elsewhere note that the problem is w. yr sesamoids, this made me curious:
gblauer wrote: [ I have arthritis in both big toes that will only get worse.
Do you have degeneration in the joints as well as sesamoid problems?
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gblauer
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Dec 1, 2010, 6:23 AM
Post #119 of 128
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The MRI was inconclusive re: sesamoid bones. One doctor thinks my sesamod bones are misaligned and that I have arthritis in those bones as well. The surgeon who worked on my feet disagrees. So, who knows?
All I know is that my feet hurt every day!
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caughtinside
Dec 1, 2010, 6:37 AM
Post #120 of 128
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damn. My toes used to hurt every day when I was climbing full time. Hurt the worst in the morning, I could barely walk when I got up, then they'd loosen up.
I ended up just switching shoes and my feet felt great in a month. My old katanas just pushed my big toe too far in towards the rest of my toes. I got some scarpas that let my big toe lie straight, more like the shape of my foot.
Doesn't sound like this has anythign to do with your problem... but someone else might consider a simple shoe change to save some pain.
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k.l.k
Dec 1, 2010, 5:39 PM
Post #121 of 128
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gblauer wrote: The MRI was inconclusive re: sesamoid bones. One doctor thinks my sesamod bones are misaligned and that I have arthritis in those bones as well. The surgeon who worked on my feet disagrees. So, who knows?
The sesamoids are really small, so it's not easy to get clear news on xray or mri.
I fractured a methead and the sesamoid and went through several years of serious pain, so i have a sense of how it feels. Since I didn't have problems in the distal joint, i was able to climb barefoot, or in supersoft slippers, on roof problems without any pain, so long as i just did the prehensile toe thing. But it was several years (and jillions of dollars on shoes and orthotics) before I was able to do mileage and slabs again.
For my problems, rockers didn't help because they just focused more weight transfer on the met head/sesamoid. And I still have to constantly work with my footwear, on and off the rock. Seems like I'm always trying something a little different.
Be sure to stay on top of yr PT-- it'd be very easy now for your toe extensors and flexors to atrophy.
Sorry about the pain-- chronic pain is no fun.
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gblauer
Moderator
Aug 14, 2014, 4:00 AM
Post #122 of 128
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It's been five years since my surgery. Thought I should post an update:
I had double cheilectomy staggered two weeks apart back in 2009. During my down time I worked with a trainer to build overall body strength so that I could get back to climbing as soon as possible. I can distinctly remember when I tried climbing the first time; my toes were screaming. So my resourceful husband built some steel shanks that he taped to the inside of my shoes. I called them my "spoons". I felt like I had a spoon in each shoe, preventing my big toes from bending. It worked and I was able to regain my climbing fitness. As I progressed, I needed to fine tune the spoons. Mitch made plaster molds of my feet and turned those molds into latex molds which were used to make carbon fiber orthotics for my climbing shoes. he modeled them after these:
http://indianabrace.com/...lluxrigidusPain.aspx
I purchased shoes 1/2 size larger since the orthotics take up volume. I have been climbing on the orthotics ever since (he made me several pair. Each pair seems to last 2 years or so). In the gym I am leading 11's, outdoors I am doing slab, overhanging, face climbs. Nothing really bothers my feet until the end of the day. Then everything starts to hurt (aging sucks doesn't it?) I have been very diligent about my footwear. I only wear rocker shoes or dansko shoes. (other than my approach shoes. I have carbon fiber orthotics like the x1 blades in my approach shoes, with a metatarsal hapad). I think my choice of footwear has significantly diminished the rate of decline in my toes. At first, I was certain that I was headed for a fusion. Now, I think I may just get away without having more surgery. I am fairly comfortable in my rocker shoes and I do a LOT of walking all day.
If you can't do the orthotics, I recommend working with Yosemite Bum Resole. They will make a stiff midsole on your climbing shoe that is really stiff. I cannot use my orthotics in that pair of shoes, they are simply too stiff to climb. Find a stiff shoe to begin with, then have Yosemite Bum add even more stiffness. I think the key is to keep your unfused toe from bending.
I have continued my work with the trainer (I think overall strength and fitness are critical to good climbing technique) and I keep my body weight very low. I figure the less strain on my joints (did I mention that my fingers are also arthritic?) the longer I will be able to climb.
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lena_chita
Moderator
Aug 14, 2014, 12:06 PM
Post #123 of 128
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Wow, has it really been 5 years? I am glad to hear that you regained Your climbing ability.
Out of curiosity, have you tried climbing without orthotics again? Does it still hurt?
MItch is amazing! That's quite a bit of ingenious crafting to make your custom "spoons".
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gblauer
Moderator
Aug 14, 2014, 9:26 PM
Post #124 of 128
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Lena, I can do a little climbing without orthotics, but, I could never last a whole day. I could probably gym climb for a few hours.
yeah...five years...time flies as you get older.
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onceahardman
Aug 15, 2014, 10:35 PM
Post #125 of 128
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I'm really glad you are generally doing well. I recall you were really down about this, and wondered if your climbing days were over.
Time flies.
(This post was edited by onceahardman on Aug 15, 2014, 10:58 PM)
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