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dingus
Dec 9, 2008, 6:23 PM
Post #51 of 60
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A. I don't figt with Jay. I'd lose.
B. Neither of us would be caught dead slinging a hex.
When ever Jay and I disagree I quickly check to see where it is I went wrong.
Seriously?
DMT
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jac4
Dec 9, 2008, 6:27 PM
Post #52 of 60
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You all have been very helpful! Thanks!!!
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jt512
Dec 9, 2008, 7:33 PM
Post #53 of 60
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dingus wrote: Neither of us would be caught dead slinging a hex.
That's for sure. Any n00bs want to argue with us about that?
Jay
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ajkclay
Dec 10, 2008, 8:09 AM
Post #54 of 60
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agreed... there's also an assumption that we're talking about sport - a little narrow minded there, what if they're for trad?
While weight is not necessarily important for join-the-dots climbing it is when placing gear on lead.
Cheers
Adam
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USnavy
Dec 10, 2008, 10:12 AM
Post #55 of 60
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jt512 wrote: dingus wrote: OK, so you were supicious. Suspicious doesn't equal below-standard biner failure. DMT 8 kN < 10 kN. And a factor-1 fall generates about 9 kN. You decide. Jay
uhhha that depends on a lot of variables. That’s like saying "a car crash at 45 MPH will generate 50,000 lbs of force”. You have to factor in the weight of the climber, the rope used, the belay method and device used, how much drag across the biners there is, and many other things to accurately create an estimate as to how much force a factor one fall will generate. A factor one fall could generate anywhere from a measly 6 kN to over 12 depending on many variables.
And the open gate strength of a quickdraw is not in its entirety, in all cases, the sole most important specification of the draw. If you asked Chris Sharma to list what he cares about most in a draw, I can pretty much guarantee you he could think of ten more important qualities then the open gate strength of the biner.
To many, the ease of clipping and weight on the biner is more important. You say the open gate strength is the most important factor because your worried about the biner failing from gate flutter. Well one could say a wiregate is the more important feature because if the gate doesn’t flutter then you don’t have to worry about the biner breaking in the open position. One could also say the spring tension is the most important factor because the more pressure there is on the gate the lower the chance it will open and lower the chance it will be in the open gate position on a fall. Many ice climbers will tell you the most important factor is whether the biner has a wiregate or not because they don’t want the gates to freeze.
So in summary, simply saying "the open gate strength of the biner is the most important quality" is greatly incorrect. The most important quality will always very by the application its used in and by the goals of the person using the biner.
Oh and open gate failure is much less common then you think. I learned this after fairly extensive research when I too once though if I didn’t buy biners with a 11 kN open gate strength I was going to die.
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dingus
Dec 10, 2008, 12:38 PM
Post #56 of 60
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I think there are many bugaboos in climbing; the dreaded shock loading of an anchor, the myth that all anchors MUST BE equalized (or even most of them haha). Gate fluttter in another (gate flutter is a nutter) - a big bugaboo designed to sell wiregate biners no one knew they needed (till they appeared).
Gate flutter? Oh MY! Folks talk about it like there are strings of microscopic biners making up the cosmos, all individually vibrating, gates fluttering open and closed (its through these gate openings time travel becomes possible - but you have to move FAST!)
Now some targeting research could put all this shite to bed - confirm or deny these highly treasured bugaboos. Biut then we'll all just dream up the next few bugaboos to replace them.
For the most part, and I do mean most, I don't fester over this crap. For me gear selection and purchase is an analog decision, not digital. Its not a 1 or a 0. Its not a 'ah HAH! Clearly the BEST and I MUST HAVE the BEST).
No. For me climbing gear purchase decisions are a factor of need, availability, pricing, funds. Me, I WON'T buy the best and haven't, not really ever.
Having alleviated myself of this enormous pressure to HAVE THE BEST (I MUST HAVAE THE BEST GODDAMNIT!), I get quickly to 'GOOD ENOUGH.'
See for me and for most of yall? Good enough is quite good enough. And that's why I don't worry about gate open strengths and what have you - and honestly to this very moement I have not checked the gate open strength of the 30 some biners I bought in the last few months.
I am confident, and will remain so until I have evidence they are not worthy of my faith, that BD and Petzl make quality bines well inside the performance bell curve. They are good enough. There is no way Jay or anyone else is going to convice me with their opinions that the Petzl Spirit biner is a defective design. I will laugh robustly at them.
DMT
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jt512
Dec 10, 2008, 4:25 PM
Post #57 of 60
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USnavy wrote: jt512 wrote: dingus wrote: OK, so you were supicious. Suspicious doesn't equal below-standard biner failure. DMT 8 kN < 10 kN. And a factor-1 fall generates about 9 kN. You decide. Jay ...that depends on a lot of variables.
Duh.
In reply to: And the open gate strength of a quickdraw is not in its entirety, in all cases, the sole most important specification of the draw.... To many, the ease of clipping and weight on the biner is more important.
Yes, it is easy to get so caught up in performance that you lose sight of the fact that, first and foremost, the purpose of our equipment is to keep us alive.
In reply to: You say the open gate strength is the most important factor because your worried about the biner failing from gate flutter.
First of all, I would say "you're." Secondly, I never mentioned gate flutter.
In reply to: Well one could say a wiregate is the more important feature because if the gate doesn’t flutter then you don’t have to worry about the biner breaking in the open position.
Falling on an open-gate biner is still a concern with wiregates. First of all, we have to distinguish between gate flutter and whiplash. Flutter is the result of vibration in the rope during a fall. I'm not a physicist, but I see no reason why wiregates would not be as susceptible to vibration, and hence flutter, than solid gates.
Whiplash, on the other hand, occurs at the end of a fall when the biner comes to a sudden stop. Wiregates are less prone to whiplash than solid gates because wire gates have less mass. However, wiregates are not immune from whiplash. I switched from 8-kN open-gate-strength wiregates to 9.5-kN solid gates after observing a wiregate biner pop open right before my eyes on a short lead fall.
In reply to: Oh and open gate failure is much less common then you think.
I suspect that you are in no position to educate me on the frequency of open-gate failure in the field. But, regardless, it does happen occasionally, and it only has to happen to you once for the lights to go out permanently.
Furthermore, between flutter, whiplash, and gate contact with the rock, I suspect that we fall on open gates frequently, and just never know it because we normally don't exceed the biner's open-gate strength. But the fact remains that the force of a fall at the first piece of protection is in the neighborhood of carabiners' open-gate strength. There is essentially no margin of safety, and a few hundred pounds of additional open-gate strength could mean the difference between between a critical failure occurring and not.
Jay
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USnavy
Dec 10, 2008, 4:41 PM
Post #58 of 60
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jt512 wrote: Yes, it is easy to get so caught up in performance that you lose sight of the fact that, first and foremost, the purpose of our equipment is to keep us alive. Furthermore, between flutter, whiplash, and gate contact with the rock, I suspect that we fall on open gates frequently, and just never know it because we normally don't exceed the biner's open-gate strength. But the fact remains that the force of a fall at the first piece of protection is in the neighborhood of carabiners' open-gate strength. There is essentially no margin of safety, and a few hundred pounds of additional open-gate strength could mean the difference between between a critical failure occurring and not. Jay
Well if the difference between life and death is so narrow as a few hundred pounds as you say it is and the strength rating of the biner is so exponentially more superior in importantance then any other feature, why aren’t you using steel triple action locking carabiners for your draw biners? Those 10 kN open gate strength biners still can fail and are still much less safe than steel biners.
Let me guess... they are heavy, expensive, hard to clip, and would look dumb as hell. So there, you are sacrificing strength and safety for convince, price, looks and ease of clipping.
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dingus
Dec 10, 2008, 4:42 PM
Post #59 of 60
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Registered: Dec 16, 2002
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Bingo.
"Good enough" is always a moving target.
DMT
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shoo
Dec 10, 2008, 6:43 PM
Post #60 of 60
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Registered: Dec 22, 2006
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USnavy wrote: Let me guess... they are heavy, expensive, hard to clip, and would look dumb as hell. So there, you are sacrificing strength and safety for convince, price, looks and ease of clipping.
And on the 8th day, the dude in the sky made the super light, notchless, easy to clip, 9kn open gate strength, wiregated WC Heliums, and it was good. Then the dude with the horns made them really expensive, and gave some of them flame-red anodizing. Then he invented RC.com.
(This post was edited by shoo on Dec 10, 2008, 7:03 PM)
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