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greenketch
May 5, 2008, 3:56 AM
Post #26 of 36
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At risk of "revealing my old timereness" it is worth remembering where this story came from. When they returned to civilization the home boys condemned Simon for what he did and this issue was debated at great length. Than Joe wrote the book largely in defense of his partner to say, in so many words, The one who was there believes the correct decision was made.
It is great to look at what if's but until a person is there in the real world it is hard to know what is correct at the time.
(This post was edited by greenketch on May 5, 2008, 1:16 PM)
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billl7
May 5, 2008, 12:21 PM
Post #27 of 36
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greenketch wrote: It is great to look at what if's but until a person is there in the real world it is hard to know what is correct at the time.
... and sometimes it is hard to know even when you are there.
Well said.
Bill L
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bagre_rei
May 5, 2008, 1:43 PM
Post #28 of 36
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I recall reading one solution involving three steps (it was here in rc.com but I´ve not found it to cite the source)
a. let the knot jam into the belay device (now you have both hands to work)
b. grab some other carabiner, attach it to the waistband in your harness and make a Munter Hitch with the rope above the joining knot
c. now, use your knife (do you have one, dontcha?) and cut the belay loop
In this scenario, the worst thing is the thug you'll feel in your waistband when the Munter Hitch catches the guy touching the void. Even a few inches of free fall, when suddenly stopped can generate enough momentun to rip the belayer off his station. Then comes the fourth step:
d. let a lot of rope slip after cutting the belay loop, trying to slowly decelerate the descending guy.
That's the best armchair's solution I've found. And it´s far from optimal, with zero guarantee of working.
What those two guys made was truly exceptional.
(I'm sorry for any misspellings or other attacks against the english language in this post)
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clc
May 5, 2008, 1:57 PM
Post #29 of 36
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some older harnesses didn't have belay loops. but its seems feasible.
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pentapitch
May 6, 2008, 1:32 AM
Post #30 of 36
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the "let knot jam and cut belay loop" scenario does make sense.
maybe, to try and minimize the jerk when the loop is cut, is to put a prussik cord around the rope, below the jammed belay device?
never tried anything like this. all depends on if you can hold the other climber with dodgy belay.
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skiclimb
May 6, 2008, 6:53 AM
Post #31 of 36
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For instructional purposes lemme solve this problem for you.
Number one as you are lowering into unknown territory with two ropes tied together you must keep an ey on the knot ..once the knot comes within a couple feet of the belay device you must prepare for knot bypass.
This can be an utterly smooth and simple process if you are familiar with it.
preferably you haVE A SLING LONG ENOUGH TO DO A FRENCH PRUSSIK,,,the simplest of all autolocking prussik type knots which doubles usefully as tension release device. If your sling is too short to do an effective french prisik a kleimheist will work but not be as smooth for tension release. will go back to procedure for jammed nknot if using a kleimheist.
once the rope is supported from by the prusik you escape from system..ie undo your belay device and reset it just above the knot jammed tight to the knot.
release slack with the french prusik and then undo the prusik..you are now good to go for the second rope length.
However if at any time you become jammed into the belay device you will need two prusik slings..
one to secure the rope below the belay device..then cut the rope at the knot..then do a second prussik in ordr to clip the ropes together using the second prusik as an intermediary. if your original sling was long enough and second short enough you may be able to engage the belay device completely before jamming the two knots together and having to cut the first knot ..creating a jolt you may not want to risk in a shaky belay seat.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on May 6, 2008, 6:55 AM)
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RMC
Dec 1, 2009, 7:59 PM
Post #32 of 36
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Hey.......is this the guy we met @ Gahn Hyun & Eun Bong rock wall South Korea?
Rich McKellop
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dugl33
Dec 1, 2009, 8:40 PM
Post #33 of 36
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In no way meaning to pass judgement -- I wasn't there.
This said -
If a prussik type knot was set up ahead of time by the belayer, with a munter mule or mariners knot, this could have been used to pass the knot around the belay device. Anchor or no anchor, he held the weight with his stance for over an hour. No reason he couldn't have held the weight directly on his harness long enough to pass the knot.
If this was not set up ahead of time, as was the case here, he might have been able to pass the rope through the device and tie an atc mule knot, set up the prusik and pass the knot.
If he had some biners, free slings or prusik cord, he might have been able to rig something after the fact, if he acted before the knot was jammed into the device. Even without a load releasing prussik, he did have a knife, so he could have cut the prusik, although maybe the drop would have pulled him out of his stance.
Also, old school harnasses had no belay loop. Cut the harnass? Then what, hip belay lower your partner?
I'm sure in reality, without a mechanism to pass the knot set up ahead of time, setting something up after the fact might have been really tough to do. I would also posit though, that passing the knot under load had never been thought through or practiced, and he was cold, tired, dehydrated, at a shitty slipping stance, with a foggy mental state. If he had acted on it immediately, rather than an hour later, maybe he could have solved it.
(This post was edited by dugl33 on Dec 3, 2009, 3:39 AM)
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billcoe_
Dec 1, 2009, 8:54 PM
Post #34 of 36
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Most you you would have given up and left broken leg dude up on the Mt. That they made it down in a 36 hour push and out of water was a remarkqable feat. Yates did look for Joe, but he had disappeared when he punched a hole into a hidden crevasse.
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nikmit
Dec 2, 2009, 8:45 AM
Post #35 of 36
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billcoe_ wrote: Most you you would have given up and left broken leg dude up on the Mt. That they made it down in a 36 hour push and out of water was a remarkqable feat. Yates did look for Joe, but he had disappeared when he punched a hole into a hidden crevasse.
I stand behind Simon’s decision. Even Joe did- as far as I remember the first thing he said to Simon when he made it to the camp was: “I would have done the same thing”.
Keep in mind that they both were heavily dehydrated, at some stage of hypothermia, trying to survive in conditions, where you can have vodka on a stick… The wind-chill factor: -70C. It’s not your every day climb.
According to Simon, when he saw the deep crevasse, he assumed that Joe was dead, and then he also thought that he’s going to die, because he had to cross the glacier alone. When he made it where’s the sense to go back through the glacier and search for the dead body?
Here, where I’m from, we have plenty of climbers… in the summer. In the winter is different story. All of those heroes stay in bars, or in huts, trying to “nail” a girl, or just saying how great they are. When you ask them: “What have you been climbing recently?” the answers you get are: “Oh, the weather’s been shitty” “It’s too cold” and stuff like that. That said they don’t know the feeling of not feeling your body, they don’t know what it’s like to bash your hands against the rock, thinking “Please God, let the pain come…”, or what it takes to fight your wish to lay on the snow and have a sleep because of the hypothermia…
I don’t want to insult anyone, but if you don’t know what it’s like, then bugger off, you don’t have the right to judge Simon. What they’ve done was something extraordinary.
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sherpa79
Dec 2, 2009, 12:33 PM
Post #36 of 36
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I in no way criticize those guys, but here's another possible solution, assuming the entire weight of the guy can be put on the harness and you have a spare biner.
Mule knot the belay device before you hit the rope join.
Find the end of the second rope and tie a blake's hitch on the weighted line.
Put a munter hitch below the blakes and put that on your harness.
Transfer the weight off the ATC/device and pass the knot.
Take the munter/blakes off and tie a knot in the end.
The good thing about this method is that you don't have to worry about the length of your prussik sling as you are working with the second rope.
The one thing that would suck is if you lowered the blakes past your reach, especially sans anchor. But if you have a knife you can cut that after you cross the knot. You'll loose a few feet off the end but that's it.
Also, after loading the blakes and munter, you could concievably keep lowering with that by untying the rope join. You'd definitely want a stopper knot under the blake's hitch though where the rope join was. Doing thiswould really depend on what kind of lip you were facing as well.
(This post was edited by sherpa79 on Dec 2, 2009, 4:54 PM)
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