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kachoong
Jun 25, 2010, 6:11 PM
Post #26 of 38
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USnavy wrote: I always clip the belay station, you don’t want to catch a fall right off your belay loop. For the longest time I stated it’s next to impossible to catch a FF2 unless you had a locking belay device or gloves. The mathematics support this as well as plate belay devices don’t produce enough friction to stop a real factor two fall. However recently I climbed with someone who had some real experience. He caught a factor two fall right onto his belay loop with a 10.5 mm rope using a plate belay device (on the high friction mode). His partner apparently slipped right out of the belay station falling about 12 feet right onto the belay device. My partner (the belayer who caught the fall) said there was a large amount of rope slippage, even with both hands on the rope, and the rope inflicted some extremely painful burns on his hands. Keep in mind, the climber barely even got out of the belay station before he fell, this was not a whipper. This further confirms that if you try to catch any real factor two fall without a GriGri, you are going to melt your skin off your hands from rope slippage if you don’t have a GriGri. Just another reason why I use my Cinch or GriGri on multi-pitch lines. But as previously said, you can eliminate the FF2 potential by rapping down a few meters and belaying your partner below the anchor.
This doesn't make sense. How can a 12 ft fall from the belay station create a FF2? He fell 12 feet on 12 feet of rope (+ slippage)... this is FF1 or less. You said he "barely even got out of the belay station before he fell."
Just sounds like plain bad belaying to me, to have 12 feet of rope out right at the belay.
(This post was edited by kachoong on Jun 25, 2010, 6:12 PM)
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marc801
Jun 25, 2010, 6:56 PM
Post #27 of 38
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kachoong wrote: USnavy wrote: I always clip the belay station, you don’t want to catch a fall right off your belay loop. For the longest time I stated it’s next to impossible to catch a FF2 unless you had a locking belay device or gloves. The mathematics support this as well as plate belay devices don’t produce enough friction to stop a real factor two fall. However recently I climbed with someone who had some real experience. He caught a factor two fall right onto his belay loop with a 10.5 mm rope using a plate belay device (on the high friction mode). His partner apparently slipped right out of the belay station falling about 12 feet right onto the belay device. My partner (the belayer who caught the fall) said there was a large amount of rope slippage, even with both hands on the rope, and the rope inflicted some extremely painful burns on his hands. Keep in mind, the climber barely even got out of the belay station before he fell, this was not a whipper. This further confirms that if you try to catch any real factor two fall without a GriGri, you are going to melt your skin off your hands from rope slippage if you don’t have a GriGri. Just another reason why I use my Cinch or GriGri on multi-pitch lines. But as previously said, you can eliminate the FF2 potential by rapping down a few meters and belaying your partner below the anchor. This doesn't make sense. How can a 12 ft fall from the belay station create a FF2? He fell 12 feet on 12 feet of rope (+ slippage)... this is FF1 or less. You said he "barely even got out of the belay station before he fell." Just sounds like plain bad belaying to me, to have 12 feet of rope out right at the belay.
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spikeddem
Jun 26, 2010, 1:42 AM
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marc801 wrote: kachoong wrote: USnavy wrote: I always clip the belay station, you don’t want to catch a fall right off your belay loop. For the longest time I stated it’s next to impossible to catch a FF2 unless you had a locking belay device or gloves. The mathematics support this as well as plate belay devices don’t produce enough friction to stop a real factor two fall. However recently I climbed with someone who had some real experience. He caught a factor two fall right onto his belay loop with a 10.5 mm rope using a plate belay device (on the high friction mode). His partner apparently slipped right out of the belay station falling about 12 feet right onto the belay device. My partner (the belayer who caught the fall) said there was a large amount of rope slippage, even with both hands on the rope, and the rope inflicted some extremely painful burns on his hands. Keep in mind, the climber barely even got out of the belay station before he fell, this was not a whipper. This further confirms that if you try to catch any real factor two fall without a GriGri, you are going to melt your skin off your hands from rope slippage if you don’t have a GriGri. Just another reason why I use my Cinch or GriGri on multi-pitch lines. But as previously said, you can eliminate the FF2 potential by rapping down a few meters and belaying your partner below the anchor. This doesn't make sense. How can a 12 ft fall from the belay station create a FF2? He fell 12 feet on 12 feet of rope (+ slippage)... this is FF1 or less. You said he "barely even got out of the belay station before he fell." Just sounds like plain bad belaying to me, to have 12 feet of rope out right at the belay. No where does USNavy state how much rope was out - just the length of the fall. Sounds like the leader was 6' above the belay, maybe less.
"slipped right out of the belay station"
Sounds like an FF1 to me too.
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jt512
Jun 26, 2010, 1:49 AM
Post #29 of 38
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spikeddem wrote: marc801 wrote: kachoong wrote: USnavy wrote: I always clip the belay station, you don’t want to catch a fall right off your belay loop. For the longest time I stated it’s next to impossible to catch a FF2 unless you had a locking belay device or gloves. The mathematics support this as well as plate belay devices don’t produce enough friction to stop a real factor two fall. However recently I climbed with someone who had some real experience. He caught a factor two fall right onto his belay loop with a 10.5 mm rope using a plate belay device (on the high friction mode). His partner apparently slipped right out of the belay station falling about 12 feet right onto the belay device. My partner (the belayer who caught the fall) said there was a large amount of rope slippage, even with both hands on the rope, and the rope inflicted some extremely painful burns on his hands. Keep in mind, the climber barely even got out of the belay station before he fell, this was not a whipper. This further confirms that if you try to catch any real factor two fall without a GriGri, you are going to melt your skin off your hands from rope slippage if you don’t have a GriGri. Just another reason why I use my Cinch or GriGri on multi-pitch lines. But as previously said, you can eliminate the FF2 potential by rapping down a few meters and belaying your partner below the anchor. This doesn't make sense. How can a 12 ft fall from the belay station create a FF2? He fell 12 feet on 12 feet of rope (+ slippage)... this is FF1 or less. You said he "barely even got out of the belay station before he fell." Just sounds like plain bad belaying to me, to have 12 feet of rope out right at the belay. No where does USNavy state how much rope was out - just the length of the fall. Sounds like the leader was 6' above the belay, maybe less. "slipped right out of the belay station" Sounds like an FF1 to me too.
Sounds like ambiguous wording to me.
Jay
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spikeddem
Jun 26, 2010, 2:03 AM
Post #30 of 38
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jt512 wrote: spikeddem wrote: marc801 wrote: kachoong wrote: USnavy wrote: I always clip the belay station, you don’t want to catch a fall right off your belay loop. For the longest time I stated it’s next to impossible to catch a FF2 unless you had a locking belay device or gloves. The mathematics support this as well as plate belay devices don’t produce enough friction to stop a real factor two fall. However recently I climbed with someone who had some real experience. He caught a factor two fall right onto his belay loop with a 10.5 mm rope using a plate belay device (on the high friction mode). His partner apparently slipped right out of the belay station falling about 12 feet right onto the belay device. My partner (the belayer who caught the fall) said there was a large amount of rope slippage, even with both hands on the rope, and the rope inflicted some extremely painful burns on his hands. Keep in mind, the climber barely even got out of the belay station before he fell, this was not a whipper. This further confirms that if you try to catch any real factor two fall without a GriGri, you are going to melt your skin off your hands from rope slippage if you don’t have a GriGri. Just another reason why I use my Cinch or GriGri on multi-pitch lines. But as previously said, you can eliminate the FF2 potential by rapping down a few meters and belaying your partner below the anchor. This doesn't make sense. How can a 12 ft fall from the belay station create a FF2? He fell 12 feet on 12 feet of rope (+ slippage)... this is FF1 or less. You said he "barely even got out of the belay station before he fell." Just sounds like plain bad belaying to me, to have 12 feet of rope out right at the belay. No where does USNavy state how much rope was out - just the length of the fall. Sounds like the leader was 6' above the belay, maybe less. "slipped right out of the belay station" Sounds like an FF1 to me too. Sounds like ambiguous wording to me. Jay
This is more precise than what I said. Agreed.
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USnavy
Jun 26, 2010, 2:59 AM
Post #31 of 38
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kachoong wrote: USnavy wrote: I always clip the belay station, you don’t want to catch a fall right off your belay loop. For the longest time I stated it’s next to impossible to catch a FF2 unless you had a locking belay device or gloves. The mathematics support this as well as plate belay devices don’t produce enough friction to stop a real factor two fall. However recently I climbed with someone who had some real experience. He caught a factor two fall right onto his belay loop with a 10.5 mm rope using a plate belay device (on the high friction mode). His partner apparently slipped right out of the belay station falling about 12 feet right onto the belay device. My partner (the belayer who caught the fall) said there was a large amount of rope slippage, even with both hands on the rope, and the rope inflicted some extremely painful burns on his hands. Keep in mind, the climber barely even got out of the belay station before he fell, this was not a whipper. This further confirms that if you try to catch any real factor two fall without a GriGri, you are going to melt your skin off your hands from rope slippage if you don’t have a GriGri. Just another reason why I use my Cinch or GriGri on multi-pitch lines. But as previously said, you can eliminate the FF2 potential by rapping down a few meters and belaying your partner below the anchor. This doesn't make sense. How can a 12 ft fall from the belay station create a FF2? He fell 12 feet on 12 feet of rope (+ slippage)... this is FF1 or less. You said he "barely even got out of the belay station before he fell." Just sounds like plain bad belaying to me, to have 12 feet of rope out right at the belay.
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norushnomore
Jun 26, 2010, 10:31 AM
Post #32 of 38
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whipper wrote: ok, so first of all, clip a piece in the the anchor as the first piece, quit trying to reinvent the wheel, thats what we have been doing forever. NOW PAY ATTENTION If there really is a crux before the first pro, and you really have to worry about a FF2, then this is how you prevent it, have the belayer rap down below the anchor. to a good piece or the last bolt of the previous pitch, he/she can clip into it for positioning alone, but stay on the main anchor by attaching yourself with the rope. So, how you do that is to tie a figure 8 about 15 feet from your tie in to the anchor, then rap down, (stay tied in, so you dont rap off of the end), when you get to a stance or piece, tie in with whatever knot you want (I use a clove hitch on a locker) then when the leader of the next pitch, who stays at the anchor, already has 10-15 feet of rope out, and if clipped into the anchor, can no longer take a ff2... Sure you might need to stretch the rope to get to the next pitch, but that can be dealt with....if you are really worried about a FF2, this will prevent it, even though it is a pain in the ass. In 18 years, I have done it twice, one time I was glad I did. Questions?
I was just about to post the very same point.
And yes this works, think Stoner Highway, nasty ff2 falls... or not a big deal, just lower you belayer down some some 20-30 feet to the prior bolt or any other pro spot. I am glad I did.
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rgold
Jun 26, 2010, 6:27 PM
Post #33 of 38
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We've heard a bunch about how the belayer can't catch a factor-2 fall. This is just plain wrong, although it is true that there are many belayers who cannot.
Personally, I have caught one real factor-2 fall in the field, and around 20 ~factor 1.8 falls with weights in a practice situation.
The real factor-2 fall was in the 15-20 foot range and happened because a solid-looking hold broke. I only had a single point belay anchor and no other pieces were available. The climbing above was not hard right away and there was no reason to make elaborate special preparations for such a fall.
All of the catches just mentioned were with a waist belay. There is absolutely no question that factor 2 falls can be caught, but now that we have modern "improved" belay methods, and nobody practices catching weights any more, belayers are far less prepared and much more likely to fail.
First, a few comments about factor-2 falls themselves. I must live in some parallel universe, because I almost never do a multipitch climb that doesn't have factor-2 fall potential. Perhaps this is partly due to (1) living and climbing a lot in a face-climbing area rather than a region with more or less continuous cracks; protection on face climbs is much subtler and more complicated, and frequently is simply not available, no matter what the rules on the interenet and climbing manuals say, and (2) doing a lot of climbs that do not have bolted belays (or bolts anywhere, for that matter).
Jay has already described the dilemma of whether or not to clip the anchor or a piece of the anchor on such climbs. A case-by-case judgment is called for, involving not only the solidity of the anchor (unlike what we read on the internet, not all anchors are perfect), but also its position; sometimes anchors in the real world are too low to be of much or any use.
Bottom line: if you do a lot of trad face-climbing in an area without bolted anchors, and you don't just blindly clip your anchor regardless of its position and constitution, then you will be faced with the potential for a factor-2 fall with some regularity.
The solution of routinely clipping a trad belay anchor seems to me to be the wrong way; we have virtually no data on this but I think that in the long run the party is in greater danger this way for the types of climbs and anchors I've described, but of course this is from the perspective of someone who has experience catching very high fall-factor falls and isn't just hypothesizing about it.
So why is it that all of a sudden belayers can't catch a factor-2 fall? There are at least three reasons I can think of related to tube-style devices:
(1) No gloves. If you belay without gloves, you either won't be able to catch a factor-2 fall or you'll be severely burned in the process. It has taken decades for the climbing community to accept helmets. Gloves are in precisely the same category, but it remains fashionable to go bare-handed.
(2) Inadequate friction. This is, in my opinion, a serious problem. People judge their belay devices on how easy it is to pump slack to a leader who is clipping. In many cases, I believe the device doesn't come even close to supplying enough friction to hold factor~2 fall. (I've been posting about this for at least ten years!)
As I've said over and over, if you can't do a single-strand free-hanging rappel with your device, it is simply not up to the task of high-stakes belaying. Add the lack of gloves to inadequate friction and you get a self-fulfilling failure prophecy.
I think a lot of manufacturers give totally unrealistic rope ranges for their devices. The breaking ability of most tubular devices can decrease by half from the larger to smaller "approved" diameters. If you are using thin ropes, your device may well not be up to the task.
(3) Failure of technique. As Jay said, you have to being belaying palm up and be ready to brake by bringing the braking hand up to the chest, not down to the hip. Two hands on the rope, as Jay also mentioned, is a very good idea, especially if your ropes are thin. If your device fails the single-strand rappel test, then you should be using double biners for the belay too.
I've described what I think the best way to anchor the belayer in other threads. There has been some debate about about the methods I described with valid points being raised. All-in-all, I still don't feel that I know a better way.
Direct belays off the anchor as Adan pictured may work for modern double-bolted anchors, but I think almost all climbers would consider them inappropriate for real trad anchors in the field. The redirected plate pictured will definitely not be effective for belaying a leader; it will be far too difficult to pump out slack for clips. Use a Munter hitch for this situation.
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JimTitt
Jun 26, 2010, 9:31 PM
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I´ll make this short because it is late and I´ve just watched your boys lose against Ghana!
There is a similar thread on UKC and interestingly the general drift is modern devices probably equal rope burns but waist belays sort-of o.k. (as I started with belaying this way seems sensible to me). Certainly in those days protection was harder to get and no-one seemed to think leading 5 or 10m out from the belay was anything out of the norm, though falling was to be discouraged.
I talked to the Beal guys at a trade show this winter about rope diameters and treatments and their relationship to modern belay devices and all they said was the biggest advance in the past years was introducing a line of belay gloves!
Out of all the belay devices I´ve tested I have never tried a waist belay so if there is time next week I´ll try to get some real numbers on this to see whether it was a combination of luck and stiff old ropes or is waist belaying really that much better.
Jim
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walkonyourhands
Jun 26, 2010, 9:43 PM
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rgold wrote: Direct belays off the anchor as Adan pictured may work for modern double-bolted anchors, but I think almost all climbers would consider them inappropriate for real trad anchors in the field. The redirected plate pictured will definitely not be effective for belaying a leader; it will be far too difficult to pump out slack for clips. Use a Munter hitch for this situation.
I'd say that the belayer can unclip the redirect after the leader gets a number of decent pieces in.
It's great to hear your perspective on these things, that's valuable information. Thanks.
What I'm missing in this and in similar debates is discussion about the way the current (young) elite handles these things. Of course, there's a lot of risk assessment involved when it comes to high-end climbing, but it would be interesting what techniques and devices the top climbers use. I'm sure that many of them haven't used a hip belay even once.
The integration of this view could offer a less pessimistic perspective.
Edited to add:
IIRC, tests done by the German/Austrian Clubs (again  ) seem to show that high-friction tube devices offer equal or better braking power compared to a munter hitch on the higher AND lower ends of rope diameters. In the middle range, the munter wins.
I think Adan has linked to the study recently.
(This post was edited by walkonyourhands on Jun 26, 2010, 9:53 PM)
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jt512
Jun 26, 2010, 11:04 PM
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walkonyourhands wrote: What I'm missing in this and in similar debates is discussion about the way the current (young) elite handles these things. Of course, there's a lot of risk assessment involved when it comes to high-end climbing, but it would be interesting what techniques and devices the top climbers use. I'm sure that many of them haven't used a hip belay even once. The integration of this view could offer a less pessimistic perspective. .
How many of these young elites do you think have ever held a factor-2 fall? I wouldn't be surprised if the answer were zero, or damn close to zero. If that's true, then I doubt that their elite standing is relevant to the issue.
Jay
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whipper
Jun 26, 2010, 11:23 PM
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Rgold, good post....
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