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joelshmael
Apr 1, 2004, 7:35 AM
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if anybody's planning a trip soon, let me know. i'm eager to check the place out
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darkside
Apr 2, 2004, 6:06 PM
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Do not , repeat do not go to Halfway Dump.
The area is closed for bouldering and the park management are well within their rights to keep it that way. This is a matter that the Access Committee has devoted a LOT of time to and only recently started making positive headway. Violations of the ban at this time will result in seriously jeapordising current negotiations to re-open the area. We are fairly confident that following the upcoming 5-Year NEP review that some form of access can be re-instated but the chances of that will be drastically reduced if climbers cannot respect the current ban. If we fail now, it may well be another 5 years before we can convince them to review it again.
A further implication is that with the very tentative nature of all access in the Bruce Peninsula, permanent closure of Halfway Dump will have a ripple effect negatively impacting other climbing areas. It is only a temporary closure at this time , don't let it become a permanent ban by violating it.
Once again I need to impress on you ALL, the need to stay away from Halfway Dump until the matter is successfully resolved.
Halfway Dump is currently CLOSED to bouldering until further notice from the Access Committee.
Grant
Access Committee Chair
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ontario_guide
Apr 2, 2004, 6:32 PM
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Furthermore you will have to feel that wrath of Grant...
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bishop
Apr 2, 2004, 6:41 PM
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bump
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the_pirate
Apr 2, 2004, 6:53 PM
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I thought this was going to be a thread about being interrupted on the can.
Carry on, Canadians.
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darkside
Apr 2, 2004, 7:00 PM
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In reply to: I thought this was going to be a thread about being interrupted on the can. Carry on, Canadians.
Gee Nelson, we can tell where your mind is today eh?
:roll: ..............carrying on.
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oafy
Apr 2, 2004, 7:06 PM
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Dont go to the dump, or it will end up like Campden, that was such a shame, it had so much potential, plus wicked sport routes. Anyways respect the code and hopefully will get to climb it again.
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yay_chris
Apr 2, 2004, 7:10 PM
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I think Ontario hates climbers...
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shakylegs
Apr 2, 2004, 7:14 PM
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Isn't Ontario just one big dump? Oops, sorry, got it confused with armpit. Yay, inter-provincial rivalries!
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darkside
Apr 2, 2004, 7:21 PM
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In reply to: I think Ontario hates climbers...
And Oafy.... we are still working on Campden but it will be difficult. We made another presentation to the board of directors just last month. I think we rather surprised some of them with some of the things we said, and in a good way. We finally have something on paper to work with now. It'll be a while but we are still trying to reopen access in Niagara.
With ever growing access problems, climbers need to start working together with access organizations and being advocates for their own interests.
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joelshmael
Apr 2, 2004, 9:47 PM
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when is it looking like it might be open?
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fredrogers
Apr 2, 2004, 9:55 PM
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I also thought this was going to be a thread about taking a crap halfway up a route.
Maybe the area would be reopened if it had a prettier name. Maybe "Turtle Head Beach"?
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flying_dutchman
Apr 2, 2004, 10:04 PM
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ontario climbing is choss; BC is where the real stuff is
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joelshmael
Apr 4, 2004, 5:37 AM
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In reply to: when is it looking like it might be open?
here's a better question:
what can i do to help open it back up?
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ontario_guide
Apr 4, 2004, 6:12 PM
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You can help by respecting the ban and by spreading the word about the ban and encouraging your friends to avoid halfway. Grant will have further ideas.
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joelshmael
Apr 4, 2004, 6:41 PM
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In reply to: You can help by respecting the ban and by spreading the word about the ban and encouraging your friends to avoid halfway. Grant will have further ideas.
is the whole area restricted, or just restricted to climbers?
say, hypothetically, i wanted to hike and take a swim there. then, say, hypothetically, i felt like getting up on a boulder to dry off. and say i didn't like that boulder, so i went looking for a new boulder to climb up....
yeah of course i'll respect the ban. but why on earth would they close it to climbing?
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geezergecko
Apr 4, 2004, 8:24 PM
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As I heard it, last year some enterprising lads "cleaned" one of the boulders of all that moss and lichen for a route they were putting up. A park warden caught them "in the act" and there was a bit of a confrontation. This made the local papers in a non-favourable way for climbers. The end result is that climbing there was given the heave-ho.
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joelshmael
Apr 4, 2004, 11:15 PM
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In reply to: As I heard it, last year some enterprising lads "cleaned" one of the boulders of all that moss and lichen for a route they were putting up. A park warden caught them "in the act" and there was a bit of a confrontation. This made the local papers in a non-favourable way for climbers. The end result is that climbing there was given the heave-ho.
:(
that's sad.
and though i wouldn't be caught saying this to the fuzz... man, it's moss. i say scrub it off a couple of boulders in a couple of places
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ontario_guide
Apr 5, 2004, 3:59 PM
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The basic issue as I understand it is that Parks are responsible for balancing the preservation of the natural environment against users groups who will have an impact on that environment. While it might only seem like moss to you, it forms an important piece of the local ecosystem. I think that Park Administration had visions of seeing dust covered, stripped boulders all over the place and had a bit of a panic attack.
Also, the ban is not on boulderers but on bouldering. They don't care if you are a climber or not. Just that you are bouldering is good enough for them.
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krillen
Apr 5, 2004, 4:00 PM
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In reply to: man, it's moss. i say scrub it off a couple of boulders in a couple of places
An organization that's mandate is to protect our natural landscape takes this job very seriously. Moss has the same weighting that beavers, trees and water have. By destroying part of this you are in DIRECT opposition of them. It's like going to a Bowling alley and taking a hammer to the lanes. But it's okay "in a couple of places"
Cleaning, sa you've suggested, never ends with "a couple of boulders in a couple of places". There are LOTS of boulders on the beach that don't require scrubbing, and lots of routes that go around vegetation, so why do we need to "create" routes in the forest anyway? It's these types of "improvement" attitudes that are causing the brunt of ACCESS troubles in Ontario and they have to change. We as climbers need to adopt the "Leave no trace" ideals if we want to continue climbing outdoors.
Halfway Dump is a VERY cool place, but the ACCESS situation there is VERY sensitive. If we can all hold on, and work together maybe we can get the park re-opened to bouldering.
Sorry for the rant.
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joelshmael
Apr 5, 2004, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: man, it's moss. i say scrub it off a couple of boulders in a couple of places An organization that's mandate is to protect our natural landscape takes this job very seriously. Moss has the same weighting that beavers, trees and water have. By destroying part of this you are in DIRECT opposition of them. It's like going to a Bowling alley and taking a hammer to the lanes. But it's okay "in a couple of places" Cleaning, sa you've suggested, never ends with "a couple of boulders in a couple of places". There are LOTS of boulders on the beach that don't require scrubbing, and lots of routes that go around vegetation, so why do we need to "create" routes in the forest anyway? It's these types of "improvement" attitudes that are causing the brunt of ACCESS troubles in Ontario and they have to change. We as climbers need to adopt the "Leave no trace" ideals if we want to continue climbing outdoors. Halfway Dump is a VERY cool place, but the ACCESS situation there is VERY sensitive. If we can all hold on, and work together maybe we can get the park re-opened to bouldering. Sorry for the rant.
hm
i'm going to admit outright that i have no experience and am not qualified to make statetements on this matter.
that said, i want to push this a little.
how much harm can scrubbing a portion of a rockface, or a portion of a portion of some boulders do to a local ecosystem? are we talking about removing anything more than a pound of moss, total? what sort of detriment could this possibly have, beside the aesthetic.
of course, if there are special circumstances surrounding the moss or lichen, the situation changes. i understand some lichen is threatened. but is this the case at halfway dump? is that particular location fragile enough to warrant a ban on climbing?
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ontario_guide
Apr 5, 2004, 6:25 PM
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In reply to: hm i'm going to admit outright that i have no experience and am not qualified to make statetements on this matter. that said, i want to push this a little. how much harm can scrubbing a portion of a rockface, or a portion of a portion of some boulders do to a local ecosystem? are we talking about removing anything more than a pound of moss, total? what sort of detriment could this possibly have, beside the aesthetic. of course, if there are special circumstances surrounding the moss or lichen, the situation changes. i understand some lichen is threatened. but is this the case at halfway dump? is that particular location fragile enough to warrant a ban on climbing?
Basically I think that you're missing the point. This is not so much a question about the science of our impact on the boulders but rather the preception that climbers are negatively impacting the environment. Combine this with the liability to park adminsitrators and you end up with a ban on bouldering. We're not going to get any where arguing the logic of such a ban. The only way to preserve access, or in this case, regain it, is to change the perception that climbers are horrible for the environment to show that we are responsible stewards and are willing to help the park adminstration with their jobs. That's what the access committie is attempting to do.
Remember, this is an imposed ban from the park administration and it is well within their right and power to do so. It's up to us to show them that we can be an asset to the park instead of a liability.
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krillen
Apr 5, 2004, 7:13 PM
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1.) Halfway Dump was becoming QUITE popular. If 1 in 4 users removed 1 pound of moss, by the end of a long weekend you are looking at 10-20 lbs. over the course of a summer, or a couple summers there is significant loss.
2.) Moss and Lichens are base plant life for sucesssional ecological systems. These plants are responsible for not only aiding in soil creation, but also keeping moisture in the ecosystem.
3.) Big or small, all portions of an ecosystem have a purpose for being there. What is you purpose for removing them othe rtehn selfish greed?
What I don't understand is why you have to scrub any of the boulders? As I said above, there are tonnes of boulders on the shoreline, many still undeveloped. Why is there the need to go into the forest and scrub? The beach boulders have much less vegetation on them, they are drier and you can't beat the scenery
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darkside
Apr 6, 2004, 12:54 AM
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In reply to: Once again I need to impress on you ALL, the need to stay away from Halfway Dump until the matter is successfully resolved. Halfway Dump is currently CLOSED to bouldering until further notice from the Access Committee. Grant Access Committee Chair
How can I put this to make it any clearer. What do I have to do to impress upon you the disasterous nature on access of what you are debating. I really don't get dozens of e-mails some days, spend hours each week, drive hundreds of kilometres each month, or make repeated presentations to conservation authorities or municipalities, all related to access just because it seems more fun than actually going climbing.
Have you heard of the Butterfly Effect, not the movie but the hypothesis the movie uses. The hypothesis is that the flap of a butterfly's wings can change something distant and removed, The "Butterfly Effect" is often ascribed to Edward Lorenz and associated with his 1972 talk to the American Association for the Advancement of Science titled:
Predictability: Does the Flap of a Butterfly’s Wings in Brazil set off a Tornado in Texas?
Think about this:
A boulderer removes a single ounce of moss.
A park manager closes climbing.
The Access Committee gives up.
Another area closes.
The Access Committee disbands.
No one cares.
Climbing becomes outlawed.
Crags become off-limit.
New moss grows.
Unrelated, improbable, maybe, maybe you don't understand the Butterfly Effect or maybe you don't understand access issues. Does it matter?
If I tell you an area has a temporary closure, if I tell you to follow certain guidelines, if I tell you I need help, it really isn't because I want to debate it. It isn't because I want to waste my time. It isn't because I have nothing better to do.
~~~I WANT TO GO CLIMBING. ~~~
If you do too then you have to accept access is under constant pressure and requires responsible behaviour and actions from EVERY climber. Even one climber removing one ounce of moss could be the action to end all climbing.
If you want to -push- anything, why not push "Leave No Trace" or educate yourself and push responsible advocacy for the sport of climbing. Push yourself to learn more and understand more.
If climbers can't understand this then there really is little point in wasting my time on access. I may as well go climbing before it is all closed down.
Why can you not see how frustrating and counter productive, attitudes like this are? It doesn't matter how much moss, it doesn't matter how stable the ecology is, it doesn't matter what you or I think.
The National Parks have the strongest mandate on the Escarpment to protect resources. If they perceive that a single fern, moss, or tree is endangered, they are required to act. They have the power to act. They have the right to stop ANY activity.
We do not have a leg to stand on.
We have no valid argument to defend our activity.
We have no leverage.
All we have is our promise to respect the ecology, our promise to be responsible, our ability to follow regulations.
If we cannot respect this temporary ban, we will not be believed, we will not be allowed to climb. There are no loop holes, no hypothethical sunbathing halfway up a rock, no special circumstances.
The vast majority of climbers have a responsible attitude, and a genuine desire to be stewards for the environment. Following Leave-No-Trace ethics is aspired to by many.
So what is it to be? What do you really want to push?
Should I try to maintain access to climbing areas..... or just watch the buterfly flap it's wings.
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joelshmael
Apr 6, 2004, 1:33 AM
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i was looking to illicit a response, is all, to learn about this more rapidly.
i have every intention to respect the ban. sorry for frustrating you, and thanks for the discourse.
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