I don't care whether it's ultimately human error or if a minority of climbers find those markings to be in some way marginally useful. End marks are fucking up more climbers than any other gear feature.

Can anyone else think of another piece of gear or gear feature that is combining with operator error and causing accidents as frequently as those end marks? I can't.

Standardization damn it!!!!

i hope your friend is truly going to heal up good and get back into climbing, however we cant go blaming the rope markings. if he took his time and knew his gear and most of all his life line,,,( the rope) then this would have not been an issue at all. thats what happpens when people put markings on rope and try to make more short cuts for the lazier people.........rope marking are there for a reason......even though i think just the middle should be marked for convience

It wouldn't be too far to go to issue an industry wide recall on all ropes with end marks. They're not safe at any speed.

Shouldn't you tie a figure eight or other stopper knot into each end of your rope before you rappel anyway so that you don't rappel off of the end of your rope if it doesn't touch the ground? Also, shouldn't you check to make sure you're in the middle of your rope anyway? Even if I have a middle mark, I'm going to do a visual check to make sure that I have about the same amount of rope on either side of the mark just to be sure.

I don't think the end marks are to blame. I think that they're definitely part of the problem, and that removing them is a step in the right direction. However, I actually think that the middle marks are contributing to the problem as well. I think that it's a significant possibility that the existence of middle marks is causing climbers to become lazy and not double check to make sure that the middle mark of a rope is actually in the middle of the rope. I mean, just because there's a middle mark doesn't mean that it's actually at the middle of the rope-- what if I buy a rope with a middle mark and for some reason (say, damage to part of the rope due to abrasion or something) have to cut part of one end off, making the middle mark no longer centered. If you assumed that it was in the middle, you could have a serious problem not caused by end marks, but by the middle marks giving climbers a false sense of security.

Can anyone else think of another piece of gear or gear feature that is combining with operator error and causing accidents as frequently as those end marks? I can't.

Grigri's.

Shouldn't you tie a figure eight or other stopper knot into each end of your rope before you rappel anyway so that you don't rappel off of the end of your rope if it doesn't touch the ground? Also, shouldn't you check to make sure you're in the middle of your rope anyway? Even if I have a middle mark, I'm going to do a visual check to make sure that I have about the same amount of rope on either side of the mark just to be sure.

I don't think the end marks are to blame. I think that they're definitely part of the problem, and that removing them is a step in the right direction. However, I actually think that the middle marks are contributing to the problem as well. I think that it's a significant possibility that the existence of middle marks is causing climbers to become lazy and not double check to make sure that the middle mark of a rope is actually in the middle of the rope. I mean, just because there's a middle mark doesn't mean that it's actually at the middle of the rope-- what if I buy a rope with a middle mark and for some reason (say, damage to part of the rope due to abrasion or something) have to cut part of one end off, making the middle mark no longer centered. If you assumed that it was in the middle, you could have a serious problem not caused by end marks, but by the middle marks giving climbers a false sense of security.

Grigri's.

The justification for end marks is that they warn you that you are nearing the end of your rope. Well in every case where a person rapped off the end of their rope, they cruised right on past the "warning" mark and decked. So not only did the end mark lead them to rap on an uneven rope but it failed to fulfill its only conceivable purpose by preventing them from rapping of the end of that uneven rope.

Their intended to prevent accidents but their causing them instead. Thats pretty damning if you ask me.

Snowey, I can't be bothered to search just now, but if memory serves Sterling Jim was curious about just that issue not too long ago and put up a poll.

Granted, not everybody uses the knob and even fewer respond to surveys, but the results didn't look too favorably upon the end marks. He (if I'm remembering correctly) asked how man people found themselves in a situation where the end-mark directly resulted/aided in preventing an accident from occurring.

You can go look it up, but there were few if any cases....

It still boggles my mind that people can mistake an end mark for a middle mark but the accident reports have spoken and the markings have got to go.

Hmmm good point. Just about every climbing accident is the result of human error so thats probably not the most helpful filter to use. Perhaps a better way to look at it is from the perspective of utility vs. likelihood of being the primary contributing factor in an accident.

To everyone who thinks end marks should be kept in use, please riddle me this. The justification for end marks is that they warn you that you are nearing the end of your rope. Well in every case where a person rapped off the end of their rope, they cruised right on past the "warning" mark and decked. So not only did the end mark lead them to rap on an uneven rope but it failed to fulfill its only conceivable purpose by preventing them from rapping of the end of that uneven rope.

Their intended to prevent accidents but their causing them instead. Thats pretty damning if you ask me.

Yet another example of why rope manufacturers need to get rid of any mark that is not a middle mark.

I hope your friend heals quickly.

The problem is that they didn't "cruse right past the warning mark" because that mark was at the anchor. Your going to go off the short end of the rope long before you pass any other marking, if you've put the end mark at the anchor.

Yet another example of why rope USERS should watch their ends. Stupidity fault, not manufacturer. I personally love my 10 meter marks

I don't care whether it's ultimately human error or if a minority of climbers find those markings to be in some way marginally useful. End marks are fucking up more climbers than any other gear feature.

Can anyone else think of another piece of gear or gear feature that is combining with operator error and causing accidents as frequently as those end marks? I can't.

Standardization damn it!!!!

grigri

Ummm... read post #15.

grigri

how about climbers start tying knots in the end of their ropes when rappelling?

To those self described professionals, don't blame the factory markings. I still think they are great, useful and a good idea. just don't be a dumbass, check your shit, and don't get yourself killed. Thanks again to those of you wishing me well, I really appreciate it.

TIE A FUCKING KNOT IN THE ENDS! Problem solved. Do it EVERY time you can't see the bottom. What is so hard about using a system and sticking to it. Having and sticking with a system is THE MOST EFFECTIVE way to make sure you climb safe. Be open to new ideas, but don't change a system on the fly, break it in slowly and in a controlled environment.

I'm not saying he shouldn't have in this circumstance, but there are circumstances when you wouldn't.

How about: "Always tie knots in the end of your rope and if you think they might get stuck, don't throw them, carry them down with you."

Is there a circumstance when there would be a problem carrying your ropes?

I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I'm sure a scenario could come up where you'd need your hands to rap and negotiate the terrain.

By "carry" I mean butterfly the rope and put it in a basket-hitched sling on the side of your harness. Both hands are free to do whatever you normally do.

I use this technique more often than I throw the rope. I'm an autoblock kind of guy, too.

I'm more of a visual person, so if you have pics of what you mean then that would be appreciated.

Thanks, that's pretty clear.

By "carry" I mean butterfly the rope and put it in a basket-hitched sling on the side of your harness. Both hands are free to do whatever you normally do.

I use this technique more often than I throw the rope. I'm an autoblock kind of guy, too.

Hey all. I am the guy that decked. My name is Pierce.

These are the best pix I can come up with at the moment.

The basket hitched rope:


Ropes on a rappeller (not me):



You can also flake your rope into a bag and let that hang below you while you rap. If flaked well it should come right out with no problem.

Good info in this Climbing mag Tech Tip:
http://www.climbing.com/...echtips/ttalpine224/

Allen, thanks for the idea and pics. How do you find rapping with the ropes being on both sides of you? Otherwise would it be advisable to put both ropes on one side, flaked together?
Don

Holy half hour rappel Batman!!

Eff that!

Allen, thanks for the idea and pics. How do you find rapping with the ropes being on both sides of you? Otherwise would it be advisable to put both ropes on one side, flaked together?
Don

The picture was just one I found on the web to show the basic idea.

I would normally put both ropes on my right side (since I'm right handed) and flake each on their own. You could flake both of them together, but they could get out of whack and make things messy.

What size runner do you use? 1 foot or 2 foot?

Is there a circumstance when there would be a problem carrying your ropes?

Personally, I'd rather lower a person first (edit: assuming that's an option) than stack the rope on my hips, especially for a double rope rap.

Bill L

I like the end marks, because it gives me a perfect idea of how much rope is left, which comes in handy when you are out on an uncertain multi-pitch climbs and your friend is getting out of hearing distance. I can tell for the most part how much is left without them, but I think it is useful.

I disagree. The end marks are a hazard. Without them, this guy wouldn't have a broken wrist and ankle. Without them, some kids in South Dakota would still have their grandpa.

If ever I've seen a hazard, potentially even an actionable hazard in climbing gear, this is it.

A blanket industry wide recall won't bring someone back but it's the right step to move forward.

As much as I hate lawsuits, I think rope manufacturers who continue to put end markings on their ropes should be held liable for any accidents caused by them.

As much as I hate lawsuits, I think rope manufacturers who continue to put end markings on their ropes should be held liable for any accidents caused by them. By now all rope manufacturers are aware that these things contribute to accidents--and not removing them from their product makes them negligent. They are knowingly making their products less safe.

Curt

Just for my own clarification:

Are these "end marks" on ropes the same size/color as the commonly accepted "middle marks"?

How many lives have end marks saved? Without knowing that number relative to the accidents they've contributed to, I don't think I can agree with your statement. I don't believe for a second that any of those companies simply doesn't care enough to make the switch back.

No way it would stick. It's completely operator error.

I agree. It would never stick…

Neither of you have the slightest idea what you're talking about.

Hey all. I am the guy that decked. My name is Pierce. Thanks to all of you for wishing well on the recovery. Get this... I am going to work in the morning and probably climbing sometime next week. I only sprained my ankle, and that wasn't even a bad sprain. So thanks for all the well wishes. It is much appreciated.
To those of you blaming the end marks on the rope; don't. It is not the factory's fault that I didn't check my ends, it was mine. I was rapping into the New Funtier to get in some solo laps after work, was in a haste, and rapped off the short end. I'll tell you, that rope whizzing through made one hell of a snapping sounds, and sudden'y I was rocketing down. I tried catching myself to no avail, my crampons caught a ledge about ten feet off the deck, momentum flipped me over backwards, fast. Thought I was about to break my neck or back. Totally thought I was dead, done for. Smacked onto the ground, scared the living shit out of some poor sap. I layed still tomake sure there was no head, neck, back injuries. It was only when found out people were talking to 911, that I stood up and waved them off. I climbed out some easy gully on toprope, then hobbled back to the park entrance where a friend of mine was coming to work turning on the taps. He hooked up a ride home to town, and that was the day. Close call, for sure, the closest I have been.
To those self described professionals , don't blame the factory markings. I still think they are great, usefull and a good idea. just don't be a dumbass, check your shit, and don't get yourself killed. Thanks again to those of you wishing me well, I really appreciate it.
Pierce

The reason you never hear about the good is because only the bad is reported….. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would understand that.

What’s the matter sweetheart? Having a bad day? Do you need a hug? Or is it that you just like to argue with people...

I thought in the accident that started this thread, he was going climbing without a partner so I assume it was his own rope.
And if you are using gear you are unfamiliar with you should inspect it. Who knows whats wrong with it. Maybe it had a middle mark but the end has been trimmed...
In my opinion 100% User error.
Ron

At lest Pierce has the balls to take responsibility for his own actions and admit his own errors. He used one of his 9 lives that day. He learned from the error and made the lesson count. Unlike you Curt trying to put the blame on someone else.
or you are a troll

At lest Pierce has the balls to take responsibility for his own actions and admit his own errors. He used one of his 9 lives that day. He learned from the error and made the lesson count. Unlike you Curt trying to put the blame on someone else.
or you are a troll

Before you start accusing people of laying blame on everyone else or being a troll, maybe you should find out who it is your talking to in the future. It's clear you don't.

And, I happen to agree with Curt to some extent on this one. While I still don't know why people seem to be having so much trouble these days determining the length of their ropes or where the ends are, the facts are becoming very clear to me that this design is flawed. Therefore it's a really bad idea and should be yanked.

I know exactly who he is , Angry ”some fat lady in a smoke filled basement” lol
He and I have shared similar views on touchy subjects in the past . We have also disagreed on things in the past. I respect him and his opinion, and more so his ethic. Just as I do Angry. As we have similar views. Curt is a grown man, I don’t think he needs you to come and save him form a conversation with me.

I know exactly who he is , Angry ”some fat lady in a smoke filled basement” lol
He and I have shared similar views on touchy subjects in the past . We have also disagreed on things in the past. I respect him and his opinion, and more so his ethic. Just as I do Angry. As we have similar views. Curt is a grown man, I don’t think he needs you to come and save him form a conversation with me.

No way it would stick. It's completely operator error.

How many lives have end marks saved? Without knowing that number relative to the accidents they've contributed to, I don't think I can agree with your statement. I don't believe for a second that any of those companies simply doesn't care enough to make the switch back.

I'm not sure that can even be a real consideration. I own one rope that came with colorful thread sewn in to the rope for an end mark. I cut them flush when I bought it but if you look close you can still see them and I just measured their distance from the end of the rope. On this 60 meter rope (I believe it's a Monster) they are 10 meters from the end. If I remember correctly, other manufacturers have them even farther from the end at 12 or 15 meters.

A person would have to be rapping at an incredible speed for a mark 30+ feet from the end of the rope to save their life. Certainly fast enough that you wouldn't be able to stop without gloves. At best they offer a reminder to look for your ends but with that much rope left, there is no way to tell if they effected the out come.

Maybe they have saved lives and prevented injury, perhaps even more than they have caused. Even so, verifying the middle, watching for the ends and tying knots are all proven ways to prevent rapping off the ends and don't increase the chances of a person rigging an uneven line. If we can't verify their utility and I don't think we can, then I say we are better of without.

Beyond serving as "warning" marks, the only other use for them is to know how much rope is left during a belay. No one will ever convince me that small convenience (it's really not that hard to estimate accurately) is worth the death and injury they are causing. They need to go.