but if you were using an ATC, this would not be an option.

If obvious don't belay the 2nd from your harness. Just belay from the anchor and clip yourself to the anchor with a clove hitch.

I generally belay from the harness. Occasionally from the Anchor.

In most cases I like the extra flexibility to maneuver, take or provide slack usually that stuff is easier from my waist if the anchor is not perfectly positioned. I also like that it can provide an intermediate shock absorber for the anchor.

Nothing about anchors and belaying is absolute you have to be flexible and able to adjust to the situation of course.

I never belay the 2nds from my harness. Why would you? Is there any good reason? I can't think of any good circumstance where it would be better to belay from the harness rather than the anchor. Can anybody gives clear benefits for belaying from the harness.??
I know my ACMG friends always belay from the anchor, which I think is common practice with guides.
Usually I just see beginners belaying from their harness.

I never belay the 2nds from my harness. Why would you? Is there any good reason? I can't think of any good circumstance where it would be better to belay from the harness rather than the anchor. Can anybody gives clear benefits for belaying from the harness.??
I know my ACMG friends always belay from the anchor, which I think is common practice with guides.
Usually I just see beginners belaying from their harness.

A couple of weeks ago, I led a climb in S St Vrain Canyon, which ended in a hallway about 2 ft. wide. There was a perfect belay spot inside. A little projection forming a bench on the R wall and a crack in the L wall. I set up the anchor and tied in with the rope and sat comfortably on the bench. The anchor was 3 ft above me on the L wall. I was belaying off my harness. If a fall came, the force would be downward and being snug with the anchor above I wasn’t going anywhere. I noticed though that the rope would run against an edge and so reset the rope to run through a re-directional clipped to the anchor. All seemed OK. A fall and I would be pulled upwards a little with nothing to bump into.

Well, the fall came and I was slammed into the L wall. I did hold the belay. Resetting myself I realized the rope didn’t run pure vertical but made an angle of about 10° from the vertical. A quick calculation in my head meant that about 10% of the force would be pulling me horizontally. Just looking quickly at how the rope went from my belay device to the re-direct gave me the sense that the pull would be straight upwards. It was mostly upwards but not completely.

All it took for me to stabilize myself was to set one foot against the L wall as was borne out when a couple of more falls occurred and I didn’t move.

Moral: Don’t just look quickly to see where the force will take you but be a little critical and analytic about it.

Disclosure: My climbing partner wasn’t aware of what happened. All he knows is I held the fall. I haven’t yet told him what happened. No need to cause him to lose faith.

Would belaying off the anchor have been the better option here? Just wondering if that would have made a difference in your set up. That way the force of the fall would have been on the anchor & you would not have been pulled from your stance.

Edit: nbut if you were using an ATC, this would not be an option.

1) Low anchor
2) Anchor well back from edge
3) Tube style belay device
All are reasons to consider belaying from your harness.
I dislike having to stoop over to belay - you'll see that needing to happen in some anchor belays.
Guides are frequently bringing up much less skilled seconds. They are more likely to need the freedom of not being in the belay than a pair of peers climbing together.

I belay of the anchor less than 5% of the time. I prefer to not weight the anchor if at all possible. I like the dynamic element belaying off the harness provides. If I think the second is going to do some heavy dogging I'll use a redirect or belay off the anchor.

I bet most of your anchor are strong enough to belay from. so the dynamic thing really would be an issue. + I keep a tight belay so "shock loading" is avoided.
Certainly shitting belay anchors require different methods.

1) Low anchor
2) Anchor well back from edge
3) Tube style belay device

All are reasons to consider belaying from your harness.

Certainly shitting belay anchors require different methods.

Would you please explain this. I don't want to speculate.

Would you please explain this. I don't want to speculate.

r.c

1]A low anchor is equally difficult with a redirect belay also
2]an anchor far back from the edge has similar difficulties whether you belay from anchor or from harness with redirect. I think its usually a bad idea to belay straight from harness with no redirect.
3] use a munter or spend 20 bucks on a proper belay device

2]an anchor far back from the edge has similar difficulties whether you belay from anchor or from harness with redirect. I think its usually a bad idea to belay straight from harness with no redirect.

I use the reverso in autoblock and like the freedom to eat , drink, sort gear, take pics.........Generally I can be organizing myself for the next pitch while waiting for the 2nd.

Not this again.

Nice catch.

Jay

Oh, jeebus, and what are they "organizing" themselves for on the next pitch? Lead belaying?

A few months ago someone was using their reverso in autoblock mode and forgot a crucial step and dropped his partner.

The term, "belaying off the anchor," usually involves two concepts that really deserve separate consideration:

1. The seconds weight is taken directly by the anchor in case of a fall.

2. An autolocking device is used (Reverso 3, ATC Guide, Gi-Gi plate, for example).

.....
.....

My personal solution is to embrace Item 1 and eschew Item 2. I belay from my harness...off the anchor. To do this, I use clovehitchology to easily set up a taut anchor line for whatever belay position I've chosen, and then clip my belay device to the tie-in knot loop, not the harness belay loop. Belaying motions are those of the harness belay, but any load goes immediately to the anchor via the anchor rope, which supplies a significantly better shock-absorbing connection than you get by clipping a device directly to some cordelette made of low-stretch materials. (I don't change things around when belaying the leader; I think this is the best set-up for holding a factor-2 fall as well.)

Redirecting through the anchor makes the least sense in my opinion, and the OP's experience is one of a number of examples.

Reverso's and similar devices in autoblock don't work well with single ropes. Maybe super thin 9.5mm or less which I don't have. Just use a Gri-gri for a single rope. I only use double 8mm with the reveraso autoblock. This is very easy to pull the rope.

I am still puzzled why people redirect rather than belay off the anchor. Personally I either belay off my harness with no redirect or belay off the anchor.

Most of the people I climb with don't redirect. One time I was climbing with someone who did and I finished the pitch to find him perch on a ledge 3m horizontal to the redirect! He was not tied in to anything.

So if I had fallen he would have been violently dragged off his perch with only the belay device keeping him from falling. I made sure I let him know that I didn't care if he felt safe, I wanted him tied in if he was belaying me.

Lets imagine you climb a bolted route that ends at a 2 bolt, 3/8" bolted anchor200' off the deck. Just 3 feet above you, at the start of the 2nd pitch, is a phat 1/2" bolt/empty hanger. You are saying that you would not clip that bolt to belay your 2nd up?

No. I have a perfectly good anchor where I am. Why would I redirect? Especially because it almost doubles the load and is non redundant. (Not that I would be worried about failure, but I fail to see the benefit of the redirect.)

Hey JT, you counted each of those 318 words up there? Wow!

I agree. I can't see any good reason to redirect in this case. especially if its 2 nice bolts. I would "equalize" with a cordellete or long sling and use a gri-gri for a single rope or reverso for doubles.
I mostly use doubles on alpine rock or ice and climb with two 2nds following so I use the reverso in autoblock.

"""And fuck the second. Afterall, toproping isn't "real" climbing, is it?"
Jay ""

I always belay 2nds from the anchor usually with reverso autoblock or gri-gri. maybe a miss understanding.

As has been discussed in other threads, you can't provide your second a decent belay with any of these silly "Guide Mode" type devices, due to the difficulty of giving them slack quickly. Shouldn't be much of an issue with a grigri, though.
Jay

definitely giving slack is tricky with the device in "guide mode" especially if the weight is on the rope. But I've been climbing for more than a few years and only had to give out slack a few times while belaying from the top using a reverso in autoblock mode.

Lets imagine you climb a bolted route that ends at a 2 bolt, 3/8" bolted anchor200' off the deck. Just 3 feet above you, at the start of the 2nd pitch, is a phat 1/2" bolt/empty hanger. You are saying that you would not clip that bolt to belay your 2nd up?

I am a little surprised by all the people on here suggesting that a redirect through an anchor is a good thing.

When you redirect through an anchor and them belay off your harness you are creating a 2-1 pully and therefore doubling your load on the anchor in the event of a fall. You are much better in almost all situations to belay from the anchor directly.

The anchor is exactly where you want the weight of a fall to end up. There are some cases where you might want to use your stance to lower the load on the anchor(belaying off harness), but if you are doing this on a regular basis then your luck is going to run out eventually.

(and remarkably nobody said I was a noob or a gumby),

That's weird, because I'd say that the majority of the time I have to give my second slack at some point on the ascent.

Jay

nope, it is NOT a 2 to 1.....it is a redirect

"""And fuck the second. Afterall, toproping isn't "real" climbing, is it?"
Jay ""

I always belay 2nds from the anchor usually with reverso autoblock or gri-gri.

The rope stretches a lot so they could just hang on the rope a bit if they need slack.

Gotta ask the question:

Am I the only guy who belays seconds direct from the anchor using a Reverso, but NOT in autoblock mode?

Here you go numbnuts. Scroll down a bit and it will explain to you in simple terms how a redirect effectivly doubles the force on an anchor minus friction of course.

http://climbinglife.com/tech-tips/whats-the-force-on-your-anchor.html

When you redirect through an anchor and them belay off your harness you are creating a 2-1 pully and therefore doubling your load on the anchor in the event of a fall.
.......but if you are doing this on a regular basis then your luck is going to run out eventually.

Gotta ask the question:

Am I the only guy who belays seconds direct from the anchor using a Reverso, but NOT in autoblock mode?

You might be. I use an ATC Guide off the anchor most of the time and not in autoblock mode for bringing up a single second.

hmm, not what you said here is it, and no this is not just semantics, it is a gross misunderstanding on your part.
I really love the last line, I just cant believe the rash of anchors blowing apart lately from all the luck running out....
tell me ADT, how is a top rope redirect with you standing close to the anchor, any different from a slingshot belay

I'm still a new climber, but I'm not new to basic physics. Redirecting a force off a set piece does create a pulley effect when one object tries to lift another object.

Now, if the object being pulled (the belayer in this case) is already being held up by the object (such as a hanging belay) the pulley effect is pretty much negated.

really if your concerned about the forces on a redirect anchor, you better stop lead climbing.

Well, you sound like an accident waiting to happen.

Jay

Enlighten me Jay. Why am I and Reno accidents waiting to happen?

As has been discussed in other threads, you can't provide your second a decent belay with any of these silly "Guide Mode" type devices, due to the difficulty of giving them slack quickly. Shouldn't be much of an issue with a grigri, though.

Jay

Check your physics again. HINT look at the tension in the rope. (A 2x multiplication is assuming no friction at pully. Tests have shown that it is closer to 1.6x with carabiner friction.)

Because, since the braking direction would be up, you would need to be above the anchor to brake effectively, which would put you in a position in which you could take a factor-2 fall onto your own anchor. I don't see how this could be safe, except on flat ground.

Jay

If my tie in point were above the anchor, placing myself in a position for a FF2, it would be almost impossible for me to reach down and take in slack. So that situation hasn't come into play yet.

Only my brake hand needs to be above the PP when braking. With the PP above my tie in point, this isn't hard to do. Though it is situational, I'll belay a second up this way frequently.

While I see your concern, I try to never put myself in a position that would cause a FF2 on to the anchor.

The point is that a redirect effectively doubles the load on the anchor. THAT is FACT. I dont really care to argue with you. You can believe what you want.

It's not hard to give slack through an autoblock if it's asked for before weighting the rope. You just pull on the rope biner while yarding out the rope much in the same way you would hold the cam open on a GriGri.

Which means that if the 2nd falls and needs slack he's not going to get it. .

r.c

Good luck taking in slack when redirecting the brake strand.

I don't find it hard at all to lock off in high friction mode at all. Though I've yet to lower dead weight into space the way you've suggested, I can see the advantages for the redirect then. It would be simple enough after locking off to just clip the strand to a piece of the anchor and lower.

That's not slack, it's lowering. Depending on the anchor it's not that difficult to lower someone. It can be as easy as putting a biner in the release hole (R^3 or atc-guide) and pulling up while controlling the rope with the other hand. It can be as difficult as having to setup a redirect system that pulls up on it.

You cannot possibly give a quality belay to your second if shenanigans like this are required to give slack. If I ever see a Reverso-3 or an ATC-Guide on a potential partner's harness, I'm walking away. If you want to belay off the anchor, use a fucking munter hitch. The climbing equipment industry has clearly sold the n00b segment of the climbing community a bill of goods with this "guide mode" nonsense.

Jay

Now you're starting to sound like edge. How old are you again?

Like I said, most of the time you can just pull on the biner that the rope runs over or just pull on the release tab with your hand. It's not that much more complicated than pulling on the GriGri handle.

What you guys don't get is that once there is any tension on the second, you've already blown it as a belayer. If your second does step down into tension, you need to instantly release it or else your second is aid climbing the pitch. All this autblocking nonsense makes giving that type of belay (ie a good one) nearly impossible. If you want to belay off the anchor, the solution is to use a munter hitch.

Jay

What you guys don't get is that once there is any tension on the second, you've already blown it as a belayer. If your second does step down into tension, you need to instantly release it or else your second is aid climbing the pitch. All this autblocking nonsense makes giving that type of belay (ie a good one) nearly impossible. If you want to belay off the anchor, the solution is to use a munter hitch.

Jay

Freeing gear climbs on top rope on multipitch is just a silly concept since it will generally be blown by a stuck piece. You do what you can to climb cleanly but it's not a priority.

Freeing gear climbs on top rope on multipitch is just a silly concept since it will generally be blown by a stuck piece. You do what you can to climb cleanly but it's not a priority.

If your seconds' free climbs are "generally" blown by a stuck piece, then your seconds generally don't know how to clean gear or you generally don't know how to place it.

Jay

OK it wasn't really a good argument BUT YOU'RE STILL TOPROPING.

I don't see how this could be safe, except on flat ground.

^^ There's the kicker.

Do this quite often when ice climbing in Ouray, for example, where the top of the climb is generally flat. My harness to a BFT with some spare 7 or 8 mm cord. Anchor is any combination of trees and ice screws and bolts, equalized as best I can, and tied to a powerpoint. Reverso goes on that, and ends up laying flat on the ground. Then I belay in "non-autoblock" mode. Easy to catch a fall by the second, easy to pay out slack as necessary, easy to escape the belay and lock the follower off with an overhand knot...

What am I missing?

So?

Jay

Additionally, if I'm seconding on a climb (which is NOT top roping, by the way) or top roping, I still want the opportunity to climb the pitch "free," i.e., without any points of aid.

Curt

Look, I agree and if I can I'll give my climber a nice loose belay but if I'm climbing I'm not going to get to the top and yell at my belayer for ruining my top rope free ascent because he pulled too hard.

...if I'm climbing I'm not going to get to the top and yell at my belayer for ruining my top rope free ascent because he pulled too hard.

Tell me, when the climber is out of sight how you know how much slack he has without pulling on the rope? Oops you pulled too hard and now its a top rope A0.

I would. I expect to be able to free climb the pitch, whether I'm leading, seconding, or actually top roping.

Jay

I would. I stopped climbing with this one guy who could never give a decent belay. If you're swinging leads, it's half the stinking route that gets screwed up by such incompetence. Who wants to be tensioned up a pitch? Raise your hands.


Well there's the crux of the issue. You don't know how to belay.

Where have I said that this happens on every route? You people are too much.

To recap, I'm talking about:
-long committing non-sport route (6+ pitches)
-a pitch with considerable rope drag
-the belayer is out of sight and verbal communication is limited

I'm sorry but whatever ego boost you get from a TRFA is not worth it.

It's a hell of a lot easier to tell how much slack someone has while lead belaying that belaying from the top.

You're projecting. For me climbing is FUN whereas being tensioned up a route is not so much.

I don't think he ever said that he was pulling so hard that the second was hanging. The way I read Hafilax is that he pulls up, feels some resistence, then that's enough.

To recap? You only said "out of sight" originally. Now it has to be over six pitches (why should that even matter), lots of rope drag, and of out of earshot as well.

There are situations where it's hard to give a great belay, but it's the exception instead of the rule. You make it sound like it's typical.

Your words: "Freeing gear climbs on top rope on multipitch is just a silly concept"



You're projecting. For me climbing is FUN whereas being tensioned up a route is not so much.



Not if they're out of sight, out of earshot, with a bunch of rope drag. Oh, and at least six pitches up. (snicker)