Gutsy post! If your belayer isn't equally abashed, you need to find another. My guess is that it won't happen again for either of you.

One final note. I've personally developed the habit of quickly glancing down at my harness and fall line before entering a crux or if I think I might fall and it's helped to avoid awkward or dangerous falls in the past, this time it probably kept me from getting seriously injured or killed. For those who aren't in the habit, it might be something to think about.

You would think that after the first time...

p.s. YOU WUZ IN A GYM????

The first time I was consciously aware of the fact that I hadn't tied the knot correctly. Both stooooooopid mistakes, but different circumstances. I do find the similarities between the two events rather unnerving though.



I consider this event further proof that gyms serve little purpose other than to cultivate and nurture gumbyism.

The middle of the pitch is no place to be checking your knot. You need to strengthen your habit of not leaving the ground until you are sure you're tied in properly.

Jay

I have two that stand out.

1) Lead the first of a two pitch climb and finished at a hanging belay. While hanging there @ 160' off the ground I noticed my harness felt loose. I thought to myself, 'I really though I snugged this up before leaving the ground.' Looked down and realized I hadn't doubled-back my buckles. The whole thing was sliding loose while I was hanging in it! I think I had my second on an auto-block, which made it easier to double-back the buckles while maintaining the belay.

2) In the gym and still new to lead belay with a gri-gri. I noticed I threaded the gri-gri backwards when my partner was already two or three clips up the wall. I immediately asked a third member of our group to give me a back up belay. Once the climber could clip in I re-threaded the belay. I also chastised both of us for not catching that pre-climb.


Perhaps it is the simple tasks that are most easy to overlook and that are often deadly if missed.

I've seen that gri gri screw a number of times over the years. I am very paranoid and triple check them every time. Great devices, but people seem to do this a lot.

Years back I was running laps up a top rope solo using my rescucender. I'd get to the top and remove the recucender and leave it hanging off the belay loop on a locker, then switch over to my belay device and rap the route and switch back at the bottom. After several laps I got up above the crux to take a rest and happened to look down to see I hadn't reattached the rescucender. I was free soloing without knowing it. Luckily I was able to pull up some slack and throw an 8 on a bight and clip in at this rest spot and attach the rescucender. I was a half mile from the road in an area you won't see people very often. I've always tried to do double and triple checks, but this time I missed it and got lucky.

Every single time I attach a grigri, or someone else attaches a grigri whose belaying me, I will pull on the climbing side to make sure it locks.

You're the man, I'm the hand! Pre climb chant every time.

That's pretty much maximizing the disrespect for your belayer.

Jay

That's pretty much maximizing the disrespect for your belayer.

Jay

Gutsy post! If your belayer isn't equally abashed, you need to find another. My guess is that it won't happen again for either of you.

I fucked up a few weeks back and although it didn’t end badly, it certainly could have.

I was at the gym climbing

was rapping with two different length ropes (didn't actually know this at the time as we both thought the ropes were the same length) and was paying more attention to the scary rock above me than I was the ends below me. the short rope whipped right through the ATC with about 50 feet to go and I was suddenly moving much faster than before. It took me a couple of seconds to realize that I wasn't falling, however, and then it dawned on me that I had been saved by the knot at the top.

I fucked up a few weeks back and although it didn’t end badly, it certainly could have.

I was at the gym climbing with two of my regular partners and had been leading most of the day. The route I was on was at my onsight limit but nothing special beyond that. What was exceptional was what I saw as I cruxed above the last bolt and glanced down to check the rope run and fall line. I noticed an extra figure-8 tied in the rope below my harness and I kinda did a double take. When I looked closer, I realized that it wasn’t an extra figure-8, it was the ONLY figure-8 and the tale end of the rope just ran through my tie-in points and draped down the front. WTF!!

Now, me being the idiot that I am, my first thought was (not joking here) “can I tie that one handed and preserve the onsight?”. Of course my second thought was “don’t be a jackass, down climb”, so I did. I got to the bolt below me and clipped in and tied the knot and shakily finished the route. Needless to say, there were some raised eyebrows waiting for me back on the ground.

I honestly can't remember what distracted me from finishing my knot but I have my suspicions. I remember wondering where I had put my shoes and I remember spotting them behind where John was sitting and I grabbed them right then and put them on, so I’m pretty sure that’s when it happened. And as usual, it was more than one event or mistake that lined up just right to allow for this kind of thing to happen. While we don’t have a perfect batting average, the group I was with that day are pretty consistent about double checking each other and overtly do so 80% of the time with another 15% done with eye contact but no verbal communication. Not sure if we were too busy talking shit or just plain forgot but this climb fell within the remaining 5%.

Certainly I'm not the most safety conscious climber in the world and I freely admit that but I try to keep and eye on the simple stupid stuff, especially after earning my avatar. Shit slips thru the cracks though and it's that shit that will kill you. I just got lucky is all. So no big lessons here, just a reminder to doublecheck yourself, and each other.

One final note. I've personally developed the habit of quickly glancing down at my harness and fall line before entering a crux or if I think I might fall and it's helped to avoid awkward or dangerous falls in the past, this time it probably kept me from getting seriously injured or killed. For those who aren't in the habit, it might be something to think about.

Mods, if you think this belongs in general, feel free to move it.

Well worded. Makes me wobbly-legged just imagining the rapid-fire sequence of sensations. I've also heard of close calls like this when the person on rappel was focused on looking for the next anchor location.

I'm not a big fan of knotting the rope ends - rarely do (much less than 1% of the time). However, weekend before last we did because we were too lazy to find the middle of an unmarked rope.

Bill L

Mistakes happen.

Does double checking that your partner has their harness double backed also count as maximizing disrespect?

What about asking if you are on belay? What about calling down "got me?". What about the dozens of other checks and double checks that are done all the time to climber and belayer when climbing?

Would you forgo a 1 second check to maximize your own safety?

I would—and do—ask my belayer to yank on the rope to see if it catches in the grigri. I don't tug on him. That's just rude.

Jay

I would—and do—ask my belayer to yank on the rope to see if it catches in the grigri. I don't tug on him. That's just rude.

Jay

I like the yank check, too, but like Jay, I'm satisfied if I see the belayer do it. BUT, I also have a few climbing partners I can yank around by the belay device and not endanger the relationship.

There is no such thing as "AUTO-PILOT" switch in climbing.

Everything must be manually check and recheck by pilot and co-pilot before takeoff

Instead of passing judgment, how about offering your own stories. There is no climber alive that hasn't done something stupid (except maybe Jay).

Here's two that come to mind:
1) First time in Red Rocks, first route. My partner had been there before so gave me the first lead. We were in Black Velvet Canyon and the higher profile climbs were occupied, so we decided on Sour Mash. In all my excitement, I tied in chalked up and headed up on lead.......without the rack. I didn't notice until reaching for the first piece. I down climbed back to the base, grabbed the rack, and headed back up, a little red-faced. The climbing was pretty easy to start so I wasn't in any danger, just a little embarrassed.

2) Rappelling off a route. I "ALWAYS" attach my rappel device and THEN attach my backup. For some reason, one time, I put my backup on first. I guess in my mind I was all set to go, since I had just put my backup on. It was hot, I was tired, I wasn't thinking. I went to lean back on it when Tiff stopped me.

NO ONE is above mistakes. You can say "It won't happen to me" until you're blue in the face, but guess what....being human is well, part of being a human.

Josh

Incidentally, in 25 years of climbing, I have never even once had a partner grab the rope and jerk it, and hence, jerk me. On the other hand, every time I belay with a grigri, I give the rope a jerk myself, preferably while my partner is watching.

Jay

I done stupid thing and I am no different than anyone else however, I am probably more aware of fuc*ups than most climbers (thanks to reading thousands of accident reports and documenting what went wrong) but I also learned that we need to have pre-flight check list like how pilots do it every time both before they takeoff or land. I am an ex airplane mechanic and we check, recheck and triple check everything we put together and practicing of checking twice and cutting once has saved me in so many situations. As an instructor who deals with climbers and rescuers, I personally can not effort any fuc*ups. An error, injuries or death when my name or organization's reputation is involved means death . I always say this; everything is against us in climbing and any error means trouble if not death so best thing we have to defend ourselves against close calls is the safety check list and we have to do religiously.

we can talk BS all day long here and post and joke about our fuc*ups but out there, climbing is a serious business and we need to treat our safety like how we did in the beginning.

Remember those days........fig 8 check ?, belay check ? on belay ? belay on, climbing ? climb on .....

you know, for prosperity posterity

I done stupid thing and I am no different than anyone else .....BLAH BLAH BLAH....

We are waiting, Majid......



Josh

I married a non-climber once and that should explain a lot

My biggest doozy was a n00b mistake that should never be repeated & is worth mentioning. On one of my first trips to the Gunks & before I had ever led anything, I have a friend who was my key mentor. He knew a lot, was strong & made sure that I had a hands on role in everything that was involved when we climbed together. He was a huge part of my education & I still learn a lot from him.

My biggest doozy was a n00b mistake that should never be repeated & is worth mentioning. On one of my first trips to the Gunks & before I had ever led anything, I have a friend who was my key mentor. He knew a lot, was strong & made sure that I had a hands on role in everything that was involved...

So far only two people who have posted to this thread have not fessed up. They also happen to be two of the most doggedly critical of other peoples mistakes on this site.

Jay, Majid, please share with the group. It's ok, your in a safe place. No one will judge you here.

So far only two people who have posted to this thread have not fessed up. They also happen to be two of the most doggedly critical of other peoples mistakes on this site.

Jay, Majid, please share with the group. It's ok, your in a safe place. No one will judge you here.

Prior to becoming any sort of climber, I'd logged over 1000 skydives and over 1200 pilot-in-command hours, activities which ingrain the importance of systematic equipment checks, and in which you are far less likely to get a second chance to survive an equipment failure than in (free) climbing, where your equipment is a backup for your climbing skill. Perhaps that is the reason I've never made a life-threatening error wrt my climbing equipment. I've never left the ground without my harness doubled back or my knot properly tied. I've never had a partner leave the ground with my grigri threaded backward (I've threaded my grigri backward a handful of times, but I've always caught the mistake). I've never unclipped from the anchor while improperly rigged to rappel or to be lowered (I've made mistakes doing both, but have always caught them before unclipping from the anchor). So, it's not that I'm inherently immune from errors, but rather that I have systems that catch such errors before there is any consequence to them—a concept that some of you boneheads might want to take a little more seriously.

Jay

This one falls under the category of How Not to Find the Descent.

A bazillion years ago we were bagging some routes in Indian Cove. At the end of the day we decided to grab one last route. Once on top, and with darkness closing in, we started to look for the decent. We did a very cursory glance around and decided that there was only one possible way off. There was this horrible semi steep very loose gully about 100 feet long. We decided the best option was to get one LOUSY stopper in a very LOUSY rotten crack. We figured what the hell, one biner, a sling and a stopper are not the worse things in the world to leave behind. I set up the rappel, and just as I was starting to lean back on the anchor I saw this eight year old kid standing behind my partner asking "Hey, what are you guys doing?".

I stopped and asked how he got up here. "Over there, it's just like stairs". Sure enough, I walk over, and where the edge of the universe domed over, there was a two foot step down and pretty much a stair case to the bottom.

I still shudder to think what may have happened if that kid had not come along.

I now spend a little more time looking for the descent before committing to something potentially dangerous.

quote "bill413"]After hearing the details of Lynn Hill's accident, I try and always practice "Once you start tying in, don't stop until you're finished tying in." If you forget your shoes, your chalk, whatever - get it after you finish your knot.

I once made the grave error of tying in with gmburns

Prior to becoming any sort of climber, I'd logged over 1000 skydives and over 1200 pilot-in-command hours, activities which ingrain the importance of systematic equipment checks, and in which you are far less likely to get a second chance to survive an equipment failure than in (free) climbing, where your equipment is a backup for your climbing skill. Perhaps that is the reason I've never made a life-threatening error wrt my climbing equipment. I've never left the ground without my harness doubled back or my knot properly tied. I've never had a partner leave the ground with my grigri threaded backward (I've threaded my grigri backward a handful of times, but I've always caught the mistake). I've never unclipped from the anchor while improperly rigged to rappel or to be lowered (I've made mistakes doing both, but have always caught them before unclipping from the anchor). So, it's not that I'm inherently immune from errors, but rather that I have systems that catch such errors before there is any consequence to them—a concept that some of you boneheads might want to take a little more seriously.

Jay

35 years of messing around with shit and list is just too long but a picture can talk a thousand words

[IMG]http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8195/screenhunter04.jpg[/IMG]

I hope this doesn't sound critical, becasue it's not in any way intended to be - but I just find this story hysterical.

I once made the grave error of tying in with gmburns

It's ok, he fucked up and tied in with me 2 weeks after the OP happened.

I did tell him about it though. Just not on the first day.

I don't mind catching falls. That's what I'm there for. I do (or would) mind some condescending asshole jerking on a rope I'm tied into, implying that he doesn't trust me enough to do my job. There are other belayers, after all.

Jay

I once made the grave error of tying in with gmburnsAngry

A bazillion years ago we were bagging some routes in Indian Cove. At the end of the day we decided to grab one last route. Once on top, and with darkness closing in, we started to look for the decent. We did a very cursory glance around and decided that there was only one possible way off. There was this horrible semi steep very loose gully about 100 feet long. We decided the best option was to get one LOUSY stopper in a very LOUSY rotten crack. We figured what the hell, one biner, a sling and a stopper are not the worse things in the world to leave behind. I set up the rappel, and just as I was starting to lean back on the anchor I saw this eight year old kid standing behind my partner asking "Hey, what are you guys doing?".

Prior to becoming any sort of climber, I'd logged over 1000 skydives and over 1200 pilot-in-command hours, activities which ingrain the importance of systematic equipment checks, and in which you are far less likely to get a second chance to survive an equipment failure than in (free) climbing, where your equipment is a backup for your climbing skill. Perhaps that is the reason I've never made a life-threatening error wrt my climbing equipment. I've never left the ground without my harness doubled back or my knot properly tied. I've never had a partner leave the ground with my grigri threaded backward (I've threaded my grigri backward a handful of times, but I've always caught the mistake). I've never unclipped from the anchor while improperly rigged to rappel or to be lowered (I've made mistakes doing both, but have always caught them before unclipping from the anchor). So, it's not that I'm inherently immune from errors, but rather that I have systems that catch such errors before there is any consequence to them—a concept that some of you boneheads might want to take a little more seriously.

I gave this four stars ... would have been five if the last sentence had been left off.

But Jay's right. The important thing is to look at the errors, ask where processes are lacking, and decide whether and where to make changes ... preferrably before risking the error.

Bill L

I think that's rather the point of this thread, isn't it? People who don't have the benefit of such extensive training receiving wake-up calls that convinced them to take safety more seriously - and sharing their mistakes so that others know to watch out for them too.

Hopefully that will be the effect of the thread, rather than, as implied by notapplicable, an opportunity for catharsis and to falsely convince ourselves that these mistakes are normal.

you know, for prosperity

In focus it would only take 500 words.

Fixed, if I remember the story correctly.

I don't know why this would be quoted "for posterity." I would quote it because I agree with it 100%.

When I see my partner's eyes come over to my setup, I yank the rope upwards, and (assuming the gri-gri showed that it was properly functioning) I immediately pinch the gate of my locking biner towards the spine. I do it forcefully enough to make sure we can both hear the sound of the gate's locking part against the rest of the biner.

There's no need for them to toy with my junk. We have checked ourselves and each other visually, demonstrably, and audibly.

Moreover, to avoid any issues like NA had, I always, always, always tug on my rope above my knot before I start climbing. It's like how I check my gri-gri, but with more force.

1) regarding the typo, you got GU'd (see my post below the post you quoted)

2) put your mind in the gutter and go back and read it again

I've pulled a Lynn Hill too in a gym.

I wasn't correcting your typo. I somehow doubt that Jay would suddenly realize the inyourendo in his post and go back and edit it. Haha.

..., so I let go of the ends. then I saw that she had about five feet left before the (un-knotted) ends.

... I still have that image of her rapping through the strands and falling 300 feet to the deck.

If I could remember the story Angry was belying him with gri gri right ?

... we tied knots in the ends, and I went first ...

... then my girlfriend came down ... I saw that she had about five feet left before the (un-knotted) ends.

I immediately told her ...

On the last day of our trip, we went over to Poko to climb the moderate classic Gamesmanship.

Fixed, if I remember the story correctly.

I once made the mistake of forgetting to cut your fucking rope when I had the chance!

Hopefully that will be the effect of the thread, rather than, as implied by notapplicable, an opportunity for catharsis and to falsely convince ourselves that these mistakes are normal. No, they're not. Hopefully, this thread is an unrepresentative sample.

Jay

Oh yeah, instead you tried to kill me by throwing an enormous fucking rock at my head. Thanks, Greg.




tee hee hee

My only regret was that it wasn't big enough, both in size and surprise.


edit: I'm tired dammit, and haven't had my afternoon nap. I hate typos.