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fracture
Apr 29, 2005, 2:53 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: That's why we now have V16 and 5.15, and sport climbers of pretty much average ability would be able to use your (months old, yet still oft-cited) 5.11c as a warmup, were it well-protected. 8^) Those sport climbers tend to fall and get hurt on those trad 11's, because for one thing, PLACING THE GEAR IS NOT JUST A SKILL, IT TAKES ENDURANCE AND STRENGTH TO HANG IN THERE AND DO IT, and for another, trad climbs have so many different techniques compared to sport climging that your average sport climber will have a melt down and not even know where to begin on some of your more bizzare trad climbs.
Of course, strength and endurance are both things that sport climbers tend to have in excess of your typical old-school trad :P. But either way you ignored that I mentioned that I was only talking about the difficulty of the actual climbing, without regard to issues relating to protection.
Point taken about bizzare climbs. Doesn't really contradict my point, though, which was that Healyje's claim that the modern guys don't have skills which stack up against older generations is bunk.
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healyje
Apr 29, 2005, 4:31 AM
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In reply to: Of course, strength and endurance are both things that sport climbers tend to have in excess of your typical old-school trad :P. But either way you ignored that I mentioned that I was only talking about the difficulty of the actual climbing, without regard to issues relating to protection. Point taken about bizzare climbs. Doesn't really contradict my point, though, which was that Healyje's claim that the modern guys don't have skills which stack up against older generations is bunk.
I presume that is why 90% of the discussion around the topic here always includes statements about never falling when leading on gear and leading trad 4-5 levels below people's sport abilities...
To hear some of you talk every sport climber should be able to step right up and cross over - some exceptional ones do, the vast majority drop way, way back. The key phrase in the one post was "if it were well protected...".
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healyje
Apr 29, 2005, 4:39 AM
Post #103 of 237
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In reply to: That's why we now have V16 and 5.15, and sport climbers of pretty much average ability would be able to use your (months old, yet still oft-cited) 5.11c as a warmup, were it well-protected. 8^)
Again, I've only ever mentioned that FA in the context of someone questioning my experience and how recent it is. The reason it's months old is Beacon Rock is closed until July for Peregrines. There are more on board once its open again...
I don't know sport climbers of pretty much average ability, seem to typically climb [ridiculous] levels below whatever that is when placing gear. In fact I keep telling them they should be able to climb with in a single level of difficulty, two at worst. I do see that on occasion, but it's pretty damn rare...
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guangzhou
Apr 29, 2005, 6:25 AM
Post #104 of 237
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While I hate to admit it, I learn under the old school way and was opposed to sport climbing in my early climbing years. My attitude probably came from learning to climb in Yosemite, Lover's Leap and Josh.
After a few years of denying that sport climbing was useful and tangible, I was relocated to Frankenjura in Germany. At first I was appalled by the amount of bolts I saw, but soon realized that if I wanted to climb, I had to clip them or free solo.
After two years in Germany, I not only learned to appreciate sport climbing, but I improved my movement on the rock. Sport climbing helped my trad climbing more than I could ever have imagined.
Now, I sport climb in sport areas, trad climb in trad area, and put up first accent in both categories.
I have bolted lines that would have made wonderful Trad climbs because of local ethics, and I have put up a few R/X rated routes because the local were against bolts.
No general guidelines about bolts can ever be developed because every area is different.
Currently I live in China, where I regularly put up long routes. Lately, out of respect to local, I have gone back and bolted some of my trad lines, including a couple of crack, just so people (Chinese Climbers) can climb them. Here, for climbers it's a matter of $$.
The worst thing I can imagine, is a set of rules, or worse yet, LAWS, that would govern and force all climber to establish lines in the same way across the country or around the world. Each local area needs to decide for itself what the local ethics of the crag is.
Sport climbing and trad climbing complement one another. By deciding to participate in both, you will only improve as a climber.
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dig_scott
Apr 29, 2005, 7:09 AM
Post #105 of 237
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In reply to: I think, perhaps i don't agree with the entire trad vs sport philosophy here. In my experience, the two have little in common. Trad is slow, adventurous, meditative, intensely so, and requires constant judging whether you should place pro, move on and run it out, all based on a number of careful estimates. Sport is a fast, intense activity, where you may fall a lot, and hangdog, redpoint, etc etc etc, all that stuff the ethics of the 60es frown upon. Because this is supposed to be fun and "carefree" (relatively).
I would have to disagree with this one. Climb with people that onsight 12- trad and it's very intense and there arn't a lot of falls because its best that you just don't fall.
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golsen
Apr 29, 2005, 3:42 PM
Post #106 of 237
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In reply to: Ah, the boldness thing again. I don't think you fully understand that the old-school emphasis on showing your "stones" is not considered important from the sport climbing perspective. Evil Knieval style tricks may be (mentally) difficult to accomplish, but sport climbing is about difficult movement, and there's no question that the new generation has "come up with" far more skill at the actual movement of climbing than their "parents and grandparents". This isn't just an issue of bolts: it's evident on (unbolted) boulders as well. That's why we now have V16 and 5.15, and sport climbers of pretty much average ability would be able to use your (months old, yet still oft-cited) 5.11c as a warmup, were it well-protected. 8^)
dude, if you can actually CLIMB the route, what difference does it make whether it is bolted or trad? If you can actually CLIMB the thing then the rope is totally mental.....remember, it is about the movement...If you are that good why do you even need the stinkin rope? Get back to basics and then see where that takes you. I would argue that if you need bolts to climb something, then you aint quite as good as your numbers might lead you to believe. The rock had to be altered in order to get your ass up the thing. By the way, I clip bolts when they are there and am usually thankful for them. If you think newer, sport climbers are better than the climbers of the past, you have been sniffin too much chalk dude. It is all about the progression of the sport with various branches and nearly every progression relied on the past...
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amber
Apr 29, 2005, 3:55 PM
Post #107 of 237
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i think that more cracks should be blasted, chipped, and chisled into existence. that way, we'll have more fun stuff to bolt.
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fracture
Apr 29, 2005, 4:17 PM
Post #108 of 237
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In reply to: If you think newer, sport climbers are better than the climbers of the past, you have been sniffin too much chalk dude.
There's no question about it.
Look at progress on boulders, where there is no fiddling with things like ropes (which technically have nothing to do with the actual movement of climbing). The modern guys totally crush the old guard; Healyje's claim that modern climbers are unable to come up with the skills of their forefathers is bunk.
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hosh
Apr 29, 2005, 4:23 PM
Post #109 of 237
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If there is a bolt by a crack, though I don't think it shuld be there, I'm not going to chop it. IF you don't like it, skip it.
hosh
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healyje
Apr 29, 2005, 4:53 PM
Post #110 of 237
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In reply to: In reply to: If you think newer, sport climbers are better than the climbers of the past, you have been sniffin too much chalk dude. There's no question about it. Look at progress on boulders, where there is no fiddling with things like ropes (which technically have nothing to do with the actual movement of climbing). The modern guys totally crush the old guard; Healyje's claim that modern climbers are unable to come up with the skills of their forefathers is bunk.
Movement skills - no doubt about it. No one is going to trad onsight 5.15. But movement skills alone don't define climbing any more than having superior board skills on 6 foot waves means you can surf a big day and stay alive...
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jt512
Apr 29, 2005, 5:03 PM
Post #111 of 237
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In reply to: In reply to: That's why we now have V16 and 5.15, and sport climbers of pretty much average ability would be able to use your (months old, yet still oft-cited) 5.11c as a warmup, were it well-protected. 8^) Those sport climbers tend to fall and get hurt on those trad 11's, because for one thing, PLACING THE GEAR IS NOT JUST A SKILL, IT TAKES ENDURANCE AND STRENGTH TO HANG IN THERE AND DO IT, and for another, trad climbs have so many different techniques compared to sport climging that your average sport climber will have a melt down and not even know where to begin on some of your more bizzare trad climbs.
Hmmm. The average sport climbers that I climb with on-sight 5.11 - 5.12 trad.
-Jay
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areyoumydude
Apr 29, 2005, 5:11 PM
Post #112 of 237
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: That's why we now have V16 and 5.15, and sport climbers of pretty much average ability would be able to use your (months old, yet still oft-cited) 5.11c as a warmup, were it well-protected. 8^) Those sport climbers tend to fall and get hurt on those trad 11's, because for one thing, PLACING THE GEAR IS NOT JUST A SKILL, IT TAKES ENDURANCE AND STRENGTH TO HANG IN THERE AND DO IT, and for another, trad climbs have so many different techniques compared to sport climging that your average sport climber will have a melt down and not even know where to begin on some of your more bizzare trad climbs. Hmmm. The average sport climbers that I climb with on-sight 5.11 - 5.12 trad. -Jay
So would that make you a below average sport climber?
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dingus
Apr 29, 2005, 5:37 PM
Post #113 of 237
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I'm a below average sport climber... WAY below average.
I'm a below average trad climber.
I'm a below average boulderer.
I'm way below average at aid too.
Shit, I hike slowly on trails and I'm even below average when wearing my peak bagger hat.
In fact, I have made mediocrity and under achieving my freaking badge of honor! I am WAY ABOVE AVERAGE at being below average.
The points at which I let go, fall down and get hurt have gotten pretty consistent across the various genres. But I'll tell you this...
I am much less likely to risk a serious trad fall at this point in my game than at any time in my past. Ditto bouldering. The older I have gotten, the more bones I have broken, the less the 'trad differential' means to me... and it never meant a whole helluva lot to begin with.
I totally respect stones in climbing, even when I lack them. But this notion of a trad differential is arbitrary if it is used as a measure of worth.
The fact that some hard assed 5.13 sport climber is not willing to risk trad leads harder than five dot whatEVER, is virtually meaningless, unless it is important TO THAT CLIMBER.
So saying modern sport climbers can't climb trad, or suffer a big drop in numbers, and attaching any significance to that fact, says more about the values of the critic than it does about the so called sport climber in question.
Healyje prides himself on trad lead skills. He sounds like a good climber. I respect the hard won nature of those skills. He actually didn't bring up the 5.11 r route in this thread, any more than I stated that Yosemite was my crag of choice. We each had those topics inserted and simply commented about it. Yosemite is not my crag of choice anymore, btw. I don't go there all that much and haven't for 5 or more years, for a variety of reasons.
But applying those trad skills, and the accompanying trad opinions and prejudices, at sport areas, is the equivalent to the dirty robed, bearded schizo dude braying damnation and salvation at street corner down near Fishes and Loaves. No one is really paying attention anymore.
The world has moved on. How people value and respect and conserve ROCKS has changed from the hippy lettuce days of the late 60's and early 70's. People like Doug Robbinson, who wrote the book on organic clean climbing, are perfectly content to clip bolts and not break their backs. Oh, perish the thought, that climbers want to crank hard on the sharp end without risking their lives!
The notion that a bolt next to a crack is some sort of transgression, of some sort of blasphemy, is just as arbitrary as any other ethical stance in our sport. All ethics are arbitrary, they are not etched in the stone we climb and they are not eternal. There is no euch thing as 'baseline ethics' and there never was. Ever.
That is why RESPECT for locals, and local styles, is so important. In the end, its all we have worth holding on to. And that respect cannot be a one way street.
DMT
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shakylegs
Apr 29, 2005, 5:53 PM
Post #114 of 237
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In reply to: I'm a below average sport climber... WAY below average. I'm a below average trad climber. I'm a below average boulderer. I'm way below average at aid too. s---, I hike slowly on trails and I'm even below average when wearing my peak bagger hat. In fact, I have made mediocrity and under achieving my freaking badge of honor! I am WAY ABOVE AVERAGE at being below average.
After years of trying, I have achieved dingus-hood. Now, off to rec.climbing I go.
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areyoumydude
Apr 29, 2005, 5:54 PM
Post #115 of 237
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Just climbed Sorcerer's Apprentice Left yesterday. The last pitch is rated 5.11c on the Jimmy Dunn scale. It is a crack that takes gear the whole way and has three bolts on it in 80 ft of climbing. I don't think anyone would have a problem with this crack being bolted.
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bobd1953
Apr 29, 2005, 6:00 PM
Post #116 of 237
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In reply to: The world has moved on. How people value and respect and conserve ROCKS has changed from the hippy lettuce days of the late 60's and early 70's. People like Doug Robbinson, who wrote the book on organic clean climbing, are perfectly content to clip bolts and not break their backs. Oh, perish the thought, that climbers want to crank hard on the sharp end without risking their lives!
Good points Dingus. Jim Erickson...one of the most prolific climbers in Colorado in the 70s can be been clipping bolts and enjoying the numerous sport routes around Boulder on a daily basis. Some climbers (like Jim) have moved on...others just like to whine.
Joe-didn't your crew do a lot of top-roping in the 70s?
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piton
Apr 29, 2005, 6:12 PM
Post #117 of 237
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Trad climbing
sacks are getting large again!
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greengoblin
Apr 29, 2005, 6:23 PM
Post #118 of 237
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Unacceptable on public land. On private property the owner may do whatever they wish.
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billcoe_
Apr 29, 2005, 8:23 PM
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For some reason this topic has wandered a bit. judeo-christianity and toproping discussions aside, which seem to contribute little or nothing to the point. Here's some points.
1) It's interesting that the route in question appears to be in a popular area, but still has not seen an ascent? In that case, perhaps the rock and-or the pro really is sh*t. All of us not familiar with that crack probably shouldn't be yammering on about THAT route. It sounds like even with bolts it may not have seen an ascent yet? This may be a separate discussion than the one that's been going on since about the 4th post, ie putting bolts into a near impossible line to achieve a FA. That has not been the thrust of the ongoing discussion.
2) Anybody who shows up AFTER the fact and a route has been done, and deciedes they want to slap some bolts into a crack or a toprope area which has been climbed for 30 years without bolts is lame. YOU ARE A LAMEASSED WUSSY. However, if you discuss it openly with everybody who should be involved in that discussion, then that is not lame, that is common-sense and fair. If a bolt or even 3 or 4 gets put in and someones life saved, AFTER all that open discussion and community agreement, then that is a great thing and to be desired. I do not believe anybody would argue with that. There are times and places for bolts. Even Bacher-Yerian has some. Does it need more? I do not believe anybody could achieve a concensious on that, so they wouldn't be put in. If you don't like it, go climb elsewhere, and stay off of routes like that. Don't show up with a bolt kit or rotohammer to express YOUR individual opinion. That's rude, ignorant and disrespectful.
3) I tend to agree right down the line with Healyje.
4) Stop with the "well if you don't like bolts don't clip them" arguement. Don't put bolts into an established route without discussing it first. Should anybody choose to do this, don't be surprised if somebody takes a long ratchet style socket wrench and twist the heads off of them without asking you. They have more right to twist them off as the dumbass had in putting them in.
5) Bolts aren't the end of the world, nor is putting bolts in necessarily a safe thing. In fact, in some instances, putting bolts in makes a VERY unsafe situation. Having the discussion, in advance, will help achieve a balance in their appropriate use in situations where they should be used.
6) Opinions are like assh*les, everybody has one and they all stink. But thats my opinion anyway.
Regards;
Bill
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jt512
Apr 29, 2005, 8:37 PM
Post #120 of 237
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: That's why we now have V16 and 5.15, and sport climbers of pretty much average ability would be able to use your (months old, yet still oft-cited) 5.11c as a warmup, were it well-protected. 8^) Those sport climbers tend to fall and get hurt on those trad 11's, because for one thing, PLACING THE GEAR IS NOT JUST A SKILL, IT TAKES ENDURANCE AND STRENGTH TO HANG IN THERE AND DO IT, and for another, trad climbs have so many different techniques compared to sport climging that your average sport climber will have a melt down and not even know where to begin on some of your more bizzare trad climbs. Hmmm. The average sport climbers that I climb with on-sight 5.11 - 5.12 trad. -Jay So would that make you a below average sport climber?
Absolutely.
-Jay
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seafood_meowmix
Apr 29, 2005, 8:39 PM
Post #121 of 237
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I like bolts.
On any rock.
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kyote321
Apr 29, 2005, 9:01 PM
Post #122 of 237
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are there chains at the top of many trad climbs? yes! they are bolted too.
what is the difference between bolts and pre-placed gear? as far as the ascent goes, nothing, if fact having the bolts at least allows for an onsight instead of pre-placing the gear and redpointing it. one could argue that the rock is permantently altered, blah, blah, better to worry about the SUV you drove tot he crag with and the road cut that was blasted to get there.
some cracks, like scarpelli's squat in vedawoo get bolted. (see latest climbing mag.) is something lost from the experience of stacking your hands and throwing your feet in the crack because you don't have to place a big bro at the same time? granted, if it were done now, it would go unbolted, but i doubt many bother to NOT clip the bolts now that they are there.
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maculated
Apr 29, 2005, 10:05 PM
Post #123 of 237
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In reply to: The notion that a bolt next to a crack is some sort of transgression, of some sort of blasphemy, is just as arbitrary as any other ethical stance in our sport. All ethics are arbitrary, they are not etched in the stone we climb and they are not eternal. There is no euch thing as 'baseline ethics' and there never was. Ever. That is why RESPECT for locals, and local styles, is so important. In the end, its all we have worth holding on to. And that respect cannot be a one way street.
I felt this needed repeating. And also, Dingus, you get a trophy for your above average below averageness.
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ksolem
Apr 30, 2005, 2:41 AM
Post #124 of 237
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"what is the difference between bolts and pre-placed gear?"
The difference is that no one drilled holes in the rock and created some permanent protection scheme so they could do the route.
Here's the thing. The best climbers I know excell at trad, sport, alpine, aid etc. But the best climbers also understand which method is best for each type of climbing. For example, certain kinds of routes are great bolted climbs but a beautiful crack climb is diminished if it's bolted.
And those of you who think that moving well over stone is the invention of modern sport climbing need an education. I used to see guys climb in the Gunks in the 70's who knew a thing or two. Henry Barber did OK. So did Kevin Bien and John Stannard. Out here in CA there have been a few good climbers before your time too. Ron Carson comes to mind. Ever hear of that dude?
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ksolem
Apr 30, 2005, 2:53 AM
Post #125 of 237
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Double post edited
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