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quietmonk
Apr 30, 2005, 2:55 AM
Post #126 of 237
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do not bolt cracks!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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jt512
Apr 30, 2005, 3:11 AM
Post #127 of 237
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In reply to: In reply to: Would it kill you or someone else spending the day at Dishman to throw two cams in their bag - I don't think so. If you are asking me to respect what I consider lame and unconscionable behavior I have to say that isn't going to happen. This is the fundamental difference. Throw two cams in the bag? there's 100 bucks worth of gear. Plus, you have to know which cams to take, which means you'd better own the guidebook. Now, if this was a crag with lots of trad climbs, I'd say sure. But the climbs are sport climbs. You're talking about 2 individual gear placements. What's the point? The 'challenge' or 'adventure' of plugging one cam and then clipping 8 bolts? Are you respecting the rock? Respecting the .75 camalot crack?
One seemingly absurd conclusion from healyje's position is that no route with a single opportunity for natural pro can be sport climbed.
-Jay
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dirtineye
Apr 30, 2005, 3:16 AM
Post #128 of 237
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In reply to: One seemingly absurd conclusion from healyje's position is that no route with a single opportunity for natural pro can be sport climbed. -Jay
What is absurd is to think a mixed route is a sport route, hehehe!
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jt512
Apr 30, 2005, 3:32 AM
Post #129 of 237
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In reply to: In reply to: One seemingly absurd conclusion from healyje's position is that no route with a single opportunity for natural pro can be sport climbed. -Jay What is absurd is to think a mixed route is a sport route, hehehe!
What is absurd is the concept of a mixed route in the sense you are using the term. You seem to suffer the same misconception as azrockclimber. A route can have a mix of gear and bolts, but that does not make the route a "mix" of sport and trad. In modern sport climbing, the routes have no removable protection. The whole point of sport climbing (ok, not the whole point) is to be able to do moves without the hindrance of placing gear. Even the quick draws are usually preplaced on ascents of hard sport rotues. The idea is to clip and go.
-Jay
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112
Apr 30, 2005, 3:56 AM
Post #130 of 237
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In reply to: In modern sport climbing, the routes have no removable protection.
As opposed to traditional sport climbing? :wink:
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asandh
Apr 30, 2005, 4:51 AM
Post #131 of 237
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:)
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ksolem
Apr 30, 2005, 4:55 AM
Post #132 of 237
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No matter how you cut it, it comes down to this. If you have a crack which will protect at all reasonably with removeable gear, you are bringing it down by bolting it. Bring yourself up instead.
And Dingus, I reallly like your posts here and elsewhere but I find it hard to call it the "sharp end" when it's more like what I call "Front Roping," a bolt every 3 meters.
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bobd1953
Apr 30, 2005, 5:30 AM
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In reply to: And those of you who think that moving well over stone is the invention of modern sport climbing need an education. I used to see guys climb in the Gunks in the 70's who knew a thing or two. Henry Barber did OK. So did Kevin Bien and John Stannard. Out here in CA there have been a few good climbers before your time too. Ron Carson comes to mind. Ever hear of that dude?
Kris-you forgot a few...John Bragg and Steve Wunsch come to mind.
Also remember that a fair amount of routes that were free climbed in the 70s in the "Gunks" had fixed gear on them. Later, Bob
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fracture
Apr 30, 2005, 3:46 PM
Post #134 of 237
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In reply to: For example, certain kinds of routes are great bolted climbs but a beautiful crack climb is diminished if it's bolted.
Why? This position is completely arbitrary.
In reply to: And those of you who think that moving well over stone is the invention of modern sport climbing need an education. I used to see guys climb in the Gunks in the 70's who knew a thing or two. Henry Barber did OK. So did Kevin Bien and John Stannard. Out here in CA there have been a few good climbers before your time too. Ron Carson comes to mind. Ever hear of that dude?
Moving well probably comes more from the shift to bouldering than anything else. John Gill put up a problem in 1959 that even today is considered pretty hard. Even while hangdogging was still considered cheating, bouldering allowed people to get around the (nonsensical) rules and try the same moves many times (and thus learn new techniques).
But difficulty on longer climbs is the whole point of sport climbing, and it is trivially false to claim that it hasn't done anything to increase free climbing standards---quite the contrary, free climbing standards have shot through the roof on its account. Barber was certainly bold (and again, so was Evil Knieval, though I don't see you holding him in high reverence), but he never climbed 13+ or V10, eh?
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fracture
Apr 30, 2005, 3:49 PM
Post #135 of 237
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In reply to: jt512 wrote: In reply to: The whole point of sport climbing (ok, not the whole point) is to be able to do moves without the hindrance of placing gear. Even the quick draws are usually preplaced on ascents of hard sport rotues. The idea is to clip and go. .... and this is basically called "Pretend Leading" , a method employed by those who are too embarrassed to admit they are really just top roping. :)
The sport climbing perspective doesn't place any real negative stigma on toproping (though plenty of confused sport climbers do). Leading tends to be significantly easier and more convenient on hard routes---that's why we do it.
We'll leave all the "look at me I'm bold" posturing to you tradcore types, who are obviously embarassed about something....
:lol:
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jt512
Apr 30, 2005, 4:16 PM
Post #136 of 237
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In reply to: In reply to: In modern sport climbing, the routes have no removable protection. As opposed to traditional sport climbing? :wink:
Cute. Actually, as opposed to the early days of sport climbing.
-Jay
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ksolem
Apr 30, 2005, 7:15 PM
Post #137 of 237
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Fracture. As I said earlier, the best climbers I know do well at all aspects of the sport: trad, sport, alpine etc. The best trad climbers I know love sport climbing and go on a tear when they can just clip and go. I don't disagree that sport routes have allowed climbers to push to the limit, because the protection is more or less guaranteed. But when you start advocating that clean crack climbs should be bolted I think you are wrong. It is not an arbitrary standard as you say. Most rock which is well suited for sport climbing - stuff like limestone, pocketed tuff, granite faces and so forth - would be unprotected without bolts, and therefore largely unclimbed. A clean crack however is simply made easier by bolting, accesible to lesser climbers. This is a lowering of standards. It is also a lowering of aesthetic standards.
Ultimately these issues will be worked out in each loccal area. For example I am not concerned by some bolted cracks in the Owens Gorge. But when people start sounding off like it would be good for climbing if Insomnia sprouted bolts, well, it would be a backwards development.
Oh, not posturing and certainly not embarrassed..... :D
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cgranite
Apr 30, 2005, 8:35 PM
Post #138 of 237
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Don't do it!
I haven't heard a good reason yet.
Learn to place pro,...It doesn't take a rocket scientist, just some time.
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nich_popsicle
May 1, 2005, 1:31 AM
Post #139 of 237
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In reply to: A clean crack however is simply made easier by bolting, accessible to lesser climbers. This is a lowering of standards. It is also a lowering of aesthetic standards
I think this statement probably sums up the general feeling of those tradcore individuals who feel that they are the only ones who deserve to climb a sweet crack, no? So when did you all decide climbing should be yet another one of those as*hole elitist sports where you have to be able to pay to play, and shell out several hundreds of dollars (for gear) for an "admission ticket" to good climbing?
That's right, dammit, I am going to play the "climbing should be available to everyone, regardless of their budget" card... I think saying that bolting a crack makes accessible to lesser climbers is a pretty prickish thing to say. Who are you to say what a "lesser" climber is? Do you mean someone that hasn't reached your supreme physical condition, or just someone that can't afford to buy a whole rack of shiny gear? I climb because I enjoy it, and crack climbing is extremely intriguing to me, but I can't afford to shell out the dough on a college student's income... Should I be excluded in taking part in the fun? HELL NO! I think bolting cracks allows those of us without high-bankroll budgets to take part in a different type of climbing, is that so WRONG?
I started climbing because I had friends that climbed, and they all seemed to enjoy it. Did they say, "hey, you can't afford to buy all this gear, don't bother tagging along."? NO! They were like, dude, try this climb, you'll like it!
It seems like the people who are so high strung and get bent out of shape because someone went and put in some bolts so EVERYONE can climb a nice crack (regardless of budget) have lost touch of the true meaning of the sport. The whole point of climbing (at least for me) is pushing the limits of my physical abilities, or if I don't want to do that, at least have some fun trying something different (ie, crack climbing, which takes a whole different technique and though process, which is why it appeals SO MUCH to me). What's wrong with that??? :roll:
At any rate, I still say that it is completely pointless to have a coronary because there is a bolt ADJACENT to your precious crack. I mean, I could understand if someone put the bolt INTO the crack, where it might be in the way of a gear placement, or hand jam, but it is generally off to the side, correct? The only thing it MIGHT be in the way of is some random foot smear, and if that is the case, IT'S A ROCK, FIND SOMEWHERE ELSE TO SMEAR!! Argh, quit whining, you elitist bunch of hippie yuppies (wait, is that an oxymoron? At any rate, bring climbing back to the way it used to be, when it brought people together, instead of drawing battle-lines)
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jt512
May 1, 2005, 1:53 AM
Post #140 of 237
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In reply to: That's right, dammit, I am going to play the "climbing should be available to everyone, regardless of their budget" card... I think saying that bolting a crack makes accessible to lesser climbers is a pretty prickish thing to say. Who are you to say what a "lesser" climber is? Do you mean someone that hasn't reached your supreme physical condition, or just someone that can't afford to buy a whole rack of shiny gear? I climb because I enjoy it, and crack climbing is extremely intriguing to me, but I can't afford to shell out the dough on a college student's income... Should I be excluded in taking part in the fun?
Well, you could always get a job, or a better job, or work more hours, or buy fewer video games (or whatever those things are) to save up the whopping $500 or so that you need to start a trad rack. Regardless, you could stop whining like a spoiled child. Do you act like this in front of your girlfriend?
In reply to: ...bring climbing back to the way it used to be, when it brought people together, instead of drawing battle-lines
Bolt cracks...in order to bring back climbing to the way it used to be...when it brought people together, instead of drawing battle lines. How many misconceptions can you find in that statement.
-Jay
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pt
May 1, 2005, 1:55 AM
Post #141 of 237
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In reply to: In reply to: A clean crack however is simply made easier by bolting, accessible to lesser climbers. This is a lowering of standards. It is also a lowering of aesthetic standards I think this statement probably sums up the general feeling of those tradcore individuals who feel that they are the only ones who deserve to climb a sweet crack, no? So when did you all decide climbing should be yet another one of those as*hole elitist sports where you have to be able to pay to play, and shell out several hundreds of dollars (for gear) for an "admission ticket" to good climbing? That's right, dammit, I am going to play the "climbing should be available to everyone, regardless of their budget" card... I think saying that bolting a crack makes accessible to lesser climbers is a pretty prickish thing to say. Who are you to say what a "lesser" climber is? Do you mean someone that hasn't reached your supreme physical condition, or just someone that can't afford to buy a whole rack of shiny gear? I climb because I enjoy it, and crack climbing is extremely intriguing to me, but I can't afford to shell out the dough on a college student's income... Should I be excluded in taking part in the fun? HELL NO! I think bolting cracks allows those of us without high-bankroll budgets to take part in a different type of climbing, is that so WRONG? I started climbing because I had friends that climbed, and they all seemed to enjoy it. Did they say, "hey, you can't afford to buy all this gear, don't bother tagging along."? NO! They were like, dude, try this climb, you'll like it! It seems like the people who are so high strung and get bent out of shape because someone went and put in some bolts so EVERYONE can climb a nice crack (regardless of budget) have lost touch of the true meaning of the sport. The whole point of climbing (at least for me) is pushing the limits of my physical abilities, or if I don't want to do that, at least have some fun trying something different (ie, crack climbing, which takes a whole different technique and though process, which is why it appeals SO MUCH to me). What's wrong with that??? :roll: At any rate, I still say that it is completely pointless to have a coronary because there is a bolt ADJACENT to your precious crack. I mean, I could understand if someone put the bolt INTO the crack, where it might be in the way of a gear placement, or hand jam, but it is generally off to the side, correct? The only thing it MIGHT be in the way of is some random foot smear, and if that is the case, IT'S A ROCK, FIND SOMEWHERE ELSE TO SMEAR!! Argh, quit whining, you elitist bunch of hippie yuppies (wait, is that an oxymoron? At any rate, bring climbing back to the way it used to be, when it brought people together, instead of drawing battle-lines)
suck it up and buy some gear you whiny little punk.
edited to add: pretty funny Jay and I thought the same thing.
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blondgecko
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May 1, 2005, 2:11 AM
Post #142 of 237
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In reply to: ... but I can't afford to shell out the dough on a college student's income...
C'mon - how many towns/universities are there near major climbing areas that don't have climbing clubs? Are you just too proud/selfish/elitist to spend the time helping out in a club in return for access to all the trad gear you could want, or are you simply worried about tarnishing your image?
Get a life.
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onacliff
May 1, 2005, 2:24 AM
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Back to the original post...
Standing under that route, I actually asked the same question. The answer I got was:
1. the route is still a project
2. the route is not at ALL protectable, even in the supposed "crack." From what I hear, it is for the most part hardly deep enough for fingertips, though that is hard to tell from the ground because the route is on the underside of an enormous roof and doesn't get much sun. This is probably why it is still a project despite the fact that it is such an enticing and beautiful line. Probably also why it was bolted.
3. I've heard it is 5.14+ or beyond...any takers?
Ok, back to trad vs sport flaming...
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ikefromla
May 1, 2005, 2:54 AM
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In reply to: No matter how you cut it, it comes down to this. If you have a crack which will protect at all reasonably with removeable gear, you are bringing it down by bolting it. Bring yourself up instead.
In reply to: Barber was certainly bold, but he never climbed 13+ or V10, eh?
I'm SO FUCKING SICK of ten pages of this fuckin argument. YOU WILL NOT CHANGE EACHOTHER'S MINDS. bolting a protectable crack IS bringing it down to your level, rather than rising to its. Caldwell woulnd't do it. Neither would Potter. Bolting protectable cracks... even hard ones... is eliminating part of the challenge for yourself. Placing gear on lead is harder than clipping bolts. I OF ALL PEOPLE KNOW THAT.. I DO sport climb 13+ and boulder V-double-digit (yes THAT's right, i HAVE climbed V10 in ten minutes), but I respect tradition apparently a HELL of a lot more than you who claim that the only point in climbing is the movement. I love the movement, and I LOVE to climb sport routes that PUSH ME.. that make me DIG.. learn new TECHNIQUES.. and GIVE MY ALL. but to say that it's OK to bolt a naturally protectable crack because it doesn't change the CLIMBING... you are just bullshitting yourself. give in and bolt a crack if you will. but I'll end up climbing that shit on gear. YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST FOLKS. submit your resumes here to belay. (eh, i sound like a dick, i swear i'm not, but jesus h christ this is getting ridiculous.)
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nuts_r_us
May 1, 2005, 3:17 AM
Post #145 of 237
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In reply to: In reply to: No matter how you cut it, it comes down to this. If you have a crack which will protect at all reasonably with removeable gear, you are bringing it down by bolting it. Bring yourself up instead. BINGO In reply to: Barber was certainly bold, but he never climbed 13+ or V10, eh? NO, he didn't. BUT I DO. I hate to spray grades on here... but... I'm SO f---ing SICK of ten pages of this f--- argument. YOU WILL NOT CHANGE EACHOTHER'S MINDS. bolting a protectable crack IS bringing it down to your level, rather than rising to its. Caldwell woulnd't do it. Neither would Potter. Bolting protectable cracks... even hard ones... is eliminating part of the challenge for yourself. Placing gear on lead is harder than clipping bolts. I OF ALL PEOPLE KNOW THAT.. I DO sport climb 13+ and boulder V-double-digit (yes THAT's right, i HAVE climbed V10 in ten minutes), but I respect tradition apparently a HELL of a lot more than you who claim that the only point in climbing is the movement. I love the movement, and I LOVE to climb sport routes that PUSH ME.. that make me DIG.. learn new TECHNIQUES.. and GIVE MY ALL. but to say that it's OK to bolt a naturally protectable crack because it doesn't change the CLIMBING... you are just s--- yourself. give in and bolt a crack if you will. but I'll end up climbing that s--- on gear. YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST FOLKS. submit your resumes here to belay. (eh, i sound like a dick, i swear i'm not, but jesus h christ this is getting ridiculous.)
So why are you contributing, spraylord? :wink:
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fracture
May 1, 2005, 3:26 AM
Post #146 of 237
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In reply to: In reply to: No matter how you cut it, it comes down to this. If you have a crack which will protect at all reasonably with removeable gear, you are bringing it down by bolting it. Bring yourself up instead. BINGO
Ike: check out Jay's point. If you oppose bolting a protectable climb (even at an entirely sport area, etc) without some sort of discerning logic behind it, your position naturally leads to the conclusion that any bolt on any sport climb that is near a feature that could've taken pro is unethical.
Do you really believe that?
In reply to: In reply to: Barber was certainly bold, but he never climbed 13+ or V10, eh? NO, he didn't. BUT I DO.
Which only goes to support my position.... (I think you missed my point).
Lots of people climb 13+ and V10, these days. Barber is weak by modern free climbing standards.
Just one more thing:
In reply to: Caldwell woulnd't do it.
What about Beth's new route The Optimist? (I don't know whether she or Caldwell or someone else placed the bolts).
Isn't it an ex-aid route that went at A1 or A2 or something reasonable? Of course, if she fixed pins in those scars or had to place aliens or something she might have had some trouble finding anything to use as hand holds---but do you think this means she just "brought it down to her level"? Is this unethical from your perspective?
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ikefromla
May 1, 2005, 3:28 AM
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In reply to: So why are you contributing, spraylord? :wink: |
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ikefromla
May 1, 2005, 3:47 AM
Post #148 of 237
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In reply to: Ike: check out Jay's point. If you oppose bolting a protectable climb (even at an entirely sport area, etc) without some sort of discerning logic behind it, your position naturally leads to the conclusion that any bolt on any sport climb that is near a feature that could've taken pro is unethical. Do you really believe that?
In reply to: In reply to: Barber was certainly bold, but he never climbed 13+ or V10, eh? In reply to: NO, he didn't. BUT I DO. Which only goes to support my position.... (I think you missed my point). Lots of people climb 13+ and V10, these days. Barber is weak by modern free climbing standards. Just one more thing: In reply to: Caldwell woulnd't do it. What about Beth's new route The Optimist? (I don't know whether she or Caldwell or someone else placed the bolts). Isn't it an ex-aid route that went at A1 or A2 or something reasonable? Of course, if she fixed pins in those scars or had to place aliens or something she might have had some trouble finding anything to use as hand holds---but do you think this means she just "brought it down to her level"? Is this unethical from your perspective?
Barber may have been weak by modern free climbing standards, but my point was that you can't use that as any basis of argument when it comes to boldness or "ethics."
as for The Optimist, neither of them bolted it. I can't say that I've felt those pin scars that she used at a few points (it's not an entire route of pin scars, but they are present) but i can say that IF they would take safe pro that perhaps they should have been utilized as such. As i said so many pages back, it is the responsibility of the route developer to do so RESPONSIBLY. when it comes to this point, we really are splitting hairs.
but as for unethical.. I'm not God.. I don't determine ethics any more than you do. but I would not place a bolt where the rock can take safe, natural pro. At the New there are LOTS of routes with mixed gear and bolts, and I don't mind that at all. I think it's brilliant.
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jt512
May 1, 2005, 4:34 AM
Post #149 of 237
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In reply to: but I would not place a bolt where the rock can take safe, natural pro.
I can think of numerous pockety sport climbs which could be protected at least partially with tricams and threads, but that would totally change the nature of the climbing. It comes down to whether you want to sport climb -- ie, concentrate on making hard moves without having to diddle with gear -- or not.
-Jay
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bobd1953
May 1, 2005, 5:33 AM
Post #150 of 237
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In reply to: Moving well probably comes more from the shift to bouldering than anything else. John Gill put up a problem in 1959 that even today is considered pretty hard. Even while hangdogging was still considered cheating, bouldering allowed people to get around the (nonsensical) rules and try the same moves many times (and thus learn new techniques). But difficulty on longer climbs is the whole point of sport climbing, and it is trivially false to claim that it hasn't done anything to increase free climbing standards---quite the contrary, free climbing standards have shot through the roof on its account. Barber was certainly bold (and again, so was Evil Knieval, though I don't see you holding him in high reverence), but he never climbed 13+ or V10, eh?
Not true on both statements!
Bouldering didn't take off for a number of years after the the golden years of free climbing in the 70s. Gear, (nuts) a change in thinking and several great climbers were the reasons for the jump in free climbing in the 70's.
Not one but many John gill problems are still considered hard to this day!
Henry Barber in his prime was one of the top free climbers in the world. If you look at the grades back in the 70s and what Henry climbed and compare them to today standard...you right. He didn't climbed a 13+...he climbed what would be 5.14+ by today standards. Throw in boldness and you have (at the time) a climber that was in a league by himself.
Stop trying to compare todays grades and climbs with routes and boulder-problems that were done in the 60s and 70s.
Saying Henry Barber was weak in any climbing-time-period is one of the most stupid things I have ever heard.
Different times...period!
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