IMHO people willing to stick their neck out and lead a route should ALWAYS have priority over top ropers.

This just screams of arrogance and ignorance. Get off your high horse! Now let me jsut say that I hate toproping. It's kind of a PITA and it just doesn't give me the exhilaration of leading. BUT, it is not for everyone, and to claim that you are somehow entitled to more because you lead, just makes you an asshole. When ever I approach a group that has done this they have usually made accomodations for me. I dont' like when a whole section is taken over, but if you respect other people then they will respect you back.

Josh

The other major problems I saw a couple time with those topropers
is that they thread their rope through the rappel rings of the bolted anchor instead of building their own anchor

- the rings will wear 100x times faster
- People who are rappelling are stuck at that place

This just screams of arrogance and ignorance. Get off your high horse! Now let me jsut say that I hate toproping. It's kind of a PITA and it just .
Josh

I'm not saying that a TR party should immediately get out of the way and bow down to the proscpective leaders. But if there is another party waiting to laed then they should be aware of it and limit their attempts to one per person in the party and also not have any 30 minute hang fests while someone hopelessly over their heads gets winched up "for the experience".

The TR monopolizers should be especially aware and considerant if they are tieing up some popular moderate route that the average climber at the crag could lead.

I'm not saying that a TR party should immediately get out of the way and bow down to the proscpective leaders. But if there is another party waiting to laed then they should be aware of it and limit their attempts to one per person in the party and also not have any 30 minute hang fests while someone hopelessly over their heads gets winched up "for the experience".

The TR monopolizers should be especially aware and considerant if they are tieing up some popular moderate route that the average climber at the crag could lead.

leaders right. period. if a few folks in a party all want to TR a route after its been lead thats one thing. if a gaggle of gumbies have a whole wall tied up thats when I start pulling ropes.

Sorry Josh but I mostly agree with Choss on this one. I think most old school climbers agree that there is a well understood pecking order. As climbing has become more main stream it has been dummed down to appeal to the great (washed and perfumed) masses creeping out of the gyms and the sense of what climbing used to be - the basic tenents - are being lost. Too often there is no concept of why leading is "better" or even why anyone would even want to lead - you could get hurt after all. In the good old days you would very seldom see toproping at an area where leading was an option. People would much prefer to lead a 5.5 then TR a 5.10. but now the gym rats can't bother with anything under double digits but certainly can't lead them.. You've all heard the argument - dead horse time.

I'm not saying that a TR party should immediately get out of the way and bow down to the proscpective leaders. But if there is another party waiting to laed then they should be aware of it and limit their attempts to one per person in the party and also not have any 30 minute hang fests while someone hopelessly over their heads gets winched up "for the experience".

The TR monopolizers should be especially aware and considerant if they are tieing up some popular moderate route that the average climber at the crag could lead.

Where we were just 2 days ago Old Town was tied up all Saturday afternoon by a TR party as group after group of potential leaders walked past muttering and shaking their heads. Old Town is 5.7 - extremely well protected, has immaculate rock, might be the most poplular climb on the island - but by God the TR people were there first and they weren't leaving (or moving aside).

But I'm old - along with most of the similar thinkers. The TR-ers will undoubtable pervail soon.

Instead of walking by shaking their heads, they should have approached the group with their thoughts. They may have respected that and moved on or maybe they wouldn't. I have seen just as many inconsiderate leaders as I have topropers (probably more).

Do that s**t on a weekday when nobody cares.

In my experience, this is one of those ideas that is better in theory then practice. For some reason, the general attitude I encounter alot of at the cliffs is one where no one wants to hear of any input or advice from other climbers. Whatever they are doing is absolutely right and everyone else is wrong and they should know that. I don't know, seems to just make the whole debate more complicated. It comes down to a basic principle- being considerate of others. This idea seemss to be coming extinct in our society at large, not just climbing. Everyone is out of themselves alone, damn everyone seems to be the prevailing attitude these days. :roll:

blueeyedclimber wrote:
chossmonkey wrote:
IMHO people willing to stick their neck out and lead a route should ALWAYS have priority over top ropers.


This just screams of arrogance and ignorance. Get off your high horse! Now let me jsut say that I hate toproping. It's kind of a PITA and it just .
Josh

This means NO party that is climbing one route in order to TR an ajoining route should try to claim that route and stop another party from leading it."

Now I have a question. Last fall, Ribs at the Gunks. My brother led the first pitch, I followed. As he was leading, another group got to the base and told me they were going to follow us up, one of their guys leading behind us. Ok, no problem so far. We get to the top, set up our rap, do the first rap. We get to the second rap, at the top of the first pitch of ribs, and they have a TR set up. Their TR was set up through lockers attached to the anchors. We set up our rap through the chains and rapped down. When we got down, they had this huge attitude about us rapping on their TR. Where else should we have rapped? Were we wrong? Any opinions? I just got out the guidebook to look up what Mr. Williams has to say about it. He says that leaders have the right of way to rappellers. They were not leading though and there was no one on the route. Any ideas?

This just screams of arrogance and ignorance. Get off your high horse! Now let me jsut say that I hate toproping. It's kind of a PITA and it just doesn't give me the exhilaration of leading. BUT, it is not for everyone, and to claim that you are somehow entitled to more because you lead, just makes you an asshole. When ever I approach a group that has done this they have usually made accomodations for me. I dont' like when a whole section is taken over, but if you respect other people then they will respect you back.

Josh

This just screams of arrogance and ignorance. Get off your high horse! Now let me jsut say that I hate toproping. It's kind of a PITA and it just doesn't give me the exhilaration of leading. BUT, it is not for everyone, and to claim that you are somehow entitled to more because you lead, just makes you an asshole. When ever I approach a group that has done this they have usually made accomodations for me. I dont' like when a whole section is taken over, but if you respect other people then they will respect you back.

Josh

First off, I only make the trip to the Gunks on a weeday.

Now I have a question. Last fall, Ribs at the Gunks. My brother led the first pitch, I followed. As he was leading, another group got to the base and told me they were going to follow us up, one of their guys leading behind us. Ok, no problem so far. We get to the top, set up our rap, do the first rap. We get to the second rap, at the top of the first pitch of ribs, and they have a TR set up. Their TR was set up through lockers attached to the anchors. We set up our rap through the chains and rapped down. When we got down, they had this huge attitude about us rapping on their TR. Where else should we have rapped? Were we wrong? Any opinions? I just got out the guidebook to look up what Mr. Williams has to say about it. He says that leaders have the right of way to rappellers. They were not leading though and there was no one on the route. Any ideas?

It is obvious that the only climbers that are top roping are those just starting or those just out of the gym. Every area should have a designated section set aside for this. I have no idea if this has been talked about in any circles, but more and more people are climbing right out of a gym these days that it may become necessary to do so. Yes, they have every right to climb and learn.

Wow. That's a bold statement.

taino,

they had lockers on the bolts as in the Gunks.com article but it was not threaded through the chain. It was getting dark. There was a climber on a variation of the route called ribless. We let our rope down and rapped. My brother rapped first and by the time I got on rap, the climber was at the top and began cleaning up their anchor. He told me to pull our rope and he would rap on his. So to put some details in for you - we did not dop our rope on the climber or his belayer. We did not ask however, it was getting dark and we were uncomfortable as it was our first time out that late. When we got down, they were just chilling and hanging out. We asked them the best place to eat in New Paltz. They suggested some places and we went our ways. No controntation about what happened. I think it was more of us thinking "what the fvck are they doing" and them thinking "what the fvck are they doing?"

Naw, just my nOObness showing. I'm neither a guide or a TR climber, unless I'm seconding or in a party of three. I did mention that I have little experience outside of NH & VT. All I can talk about is what I have witness ... nothing more. I'll leave this thread up to the Gunk regulars who know this area. I was just trying to help find a solution to a growing problem .. good luck.

Leaders who think they have any more right to a route should just get off their pompous high horse.

If the area is being turned into a toprope wanker area, just pull the bolts. Make it harder to set up a TR anchor. If they actually have to use gear, they either won't do it, it'll take them longer to set up, or they won't be able to string 4 trs in no time.

Also, if someone took the time leading the climb, placing gear, etc to set up a toprope, they can't just pull the rope it to let someone else lead it.

- so stop this 'leaders have a right of way' BS.

Perhaps you missed my point, T.
If a climbing party sets up few TR's, and leave one unused, its is polite to either, let someone use it, or pull it TO THE SIDE, to let them lead through.


Other than that, if someone sets up a toprope for other people in their group, they dont have to pull it for someone who wants to lead it.

Think about it:
I lead it, and my friend is toproping
or
You lead it, and you friend follows.

There is no difference. One does not have a right of way over another.

The point is that there are hundreds of beautiful climbs in the Gunks. Don't get your sights set on climbing one of them without understanding that it might very well be taken. While your average TR-climber might be willing to pull their rope aside and let you climb through, no guide is going to do it - we're being paid to make sure our clients get to climb as much as possible.

Don't take this personally, Taino, but thank God the Gunks limits the number of Guides. I think the above sentiment, while perfectly understandable for folks with paying clients, is anathema to the whole spirit of climbing. The rock should be there for all, not for those who pay to get up it. Fortunately, as you say, there are plenty of other easy climbs for new leaders to do, and the guides don't monopolize all of them. I do think that as a guide, you should aim for climbs that may be x-rated as leads, but easy enough for your clients to do. But of course that's up to you.

Personally, though, I don't really think the TR versus leader issue is cut and dried except in one case. If a TRer is monopolizing the first pitch of a classic multi-pitch line, they need to get the hell out of the way for anyone who wants to lead through. Aside from that, it's a matter of styles.

GO

User: marinaaxid25
Location: New York City

Gee, what a surprise. It's all about you, all the time, and anyone who doesn't like that can go jump off a pier, huh? Stay home in the city if you can't play nice, asshole.

GO

Hey T,

I sent him a sweet note telling him to piss off. He really had no right to "act" like that. Clearly, he's unable to read someone else's opinion. Not that I'm expecting him to change his mind.

As far as having piss in his cheerios, he probably did it himself.

I don't buy the "leader always has right-of-way" theory. It's arrogant, and personally it's full of baloney. Those of you who adamantly believe in that, get over yourself.

It's a first-come first-serve thing. And I don't refer this to only climbing. For those of you who whine and complain about others taking up room on "your" climbs, find another route to climb. Doesn't it occur to you that you're wasting more time by getting so hell-bent out of shape over this?

This sport has no room for arrogance, and if someone tells me to move because I'm top-roping, I'd tell 'em to wait it out (in a nice way, but that depends what tone of voice the other person is using). If they're not happy with that response, I'll happily flash the birdie at them.