US school siege ends in bloodshed

A gunman and one of the teenage girls he was holding hostage have died after police stormed a school in the US state of Colorado.

The violent end to the siege in the small mountain town of Bailey came after the gunman threatened to harm the two female students he was holding.

The local sheriff said the gunman had shot the hostage and then himself as police attempted to rescue the girls.

The gunman initially seized six girls, but later released four of them.

The injured girl was taken by helicopter to hospital in Denver, where she later died. The other girl was unhurt.

and your school system??? do ppl really hate school that much??? or is it just convenient because they think children/teenagers are an easy target?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/...americas/5387062.stm

The question should be asked, whats is it with wackos in the World. The U.S. isnt the only country with these type of problems.

What is it with wackos in US

May be not, but it seems to happen there with alarming regularity

At least our wackos "only" take kids hostage though, instead of using them as the actual weapons. :?

Now...im from not from the US, but I have often wondered if it has anything to do with easy access to leathal weapons.

Now...im from not from the US, but I have often wondered if it has anything to do with easy access to leathal weapons.

Woman murdered by a wacko with a knife. Cuts her open to "steal" her baby.

New legislation needs to be passed.

Outlaw all knifes.

That should stop this kind of crime in the future.

Let me turn that around:

Ask yourself, if everyone had access to a bomb so powerful it would destroy earth, would someone be wacho enough to use it?

...some would say were not to far from this being reality...


Love

O.B Laden

and your school system??? do ppl really hate school that much??? or is it just convenient because they think children/teenagers are an easy target?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/...americas/5387062.stm

sadly, i have to agree.

i dont think its the access to weapons though. they have similar access to weapons in outer countries (even here, with all the 'gun control', if you really want a gun, you can get it easily enough, legal or not; i bet i could get an AK47 easier than in US and if i want to kidnap someone and die in the process, having an illegal gun is the least of my worries), but their wackos still usually just shoot their own heads off when theyre depressed and dont spread the misery.

I teach at a school about 20 miles from where it happened. Students of mine went to that school last year. Many knew the girl who was killed. It's been an emotional day.

Question for ya Overlord? How much of your news in Celje is about the United States? Do your newspaper print local crime items that happens here in the States. I am just curious?.........Thanks Frank

just like it's easy to get drugs anywhere, it's also easy to get guns anywhere. Gun laws only make it hard to get guns legally. Which isn't hard in the US if you're not a criminal, dead beat dad, psycho, or drug addict. However, guns used in crimes tend to not be of the legally obtained kind. They almost all start out that way, but somewhere along the line, they cross the line and their transfer or use becomes illegal

So let me get this correct...the impression I have that more people die by gunfire in the US than in Europe is wrong?

I would think, that if someone got in an argument with their girlfriend, and was emotionally "out there", there would be a higher risk of a fatality if a gun was lying around in the house.

Now, I know you now will say that there for sure would be a knife in the house, and if there was no gun the knife would be used. I don't believe that, mostly because I think its a lot more personal, up close and bloody/coldblooded to stab someone with a knife until they die.

Feel free to go to http://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/4.1/GunFacts4-1-Print.pdf and find you favorite excuse for wanting guns. It's funded by the guys making money off of guns, so you can be sure they will tell you something like the way into heaven is by having more guns than your neighbor or something.

I just never understood the need to have stuff lying around with the sole purpose of killing things.
If some big guy wants to kick my ass, and I don't have a gun he will kick my ass.
If some big guy wants to kick my ass, and everyone have a gun, he will know I have a gun and bring one himself. We can now kill each other and the one alive gets to kick the dead guys ass.

Just a stupid European guys point of view.

Yesterday (really yesterday, not "the other day") a new bank 5-6 blocks from my house was robbed. The guy made his escape through our neighborhood. They found his car at a park in our neighborhood. the path between the two was withing a block of my house.

See, to me your story makes clear the anti-gun argument.

We've already established that criminals seem to have no problem getting hold of guns, so let's assume that your robber has one.

Now why do you need one? To shoot at him as he runs by, provoking an unecessary firefight over insured cash? Wouldn't you be better just staying in your house and out of his way?

I have a friend who shot out his TV while cleaning his weapon. His wife and two kids were home at the time and he is a police officer. Should we now say cops shouldn't be allowed to carry their side arms home? We can play the "what if" games all day long. We can say guns don't kill people, that people kill people and have no gun control at all. We can say that people are bored and uneducated and lets physco analyze these freaks to find the root cause of their malfunctions. But, I think we need to hold people accountable for their actions. Too many criminals are getting too light of sentences because they were abused, picked on, homeless, lost their jobs, wrong meds or the devil told them to do it. Just my thoughts......

But let's imagine that he's not as smart as you reported (pretty smart, by the way) and does break into your house to get your car. Why do you need a gun now? To shoot at an armed man, provoking a firefight in an enclosed space with your family? Wouldn't you be better off giving him your fully insured car?

I think it would be obvious to most people that in the situation you described, adding more guns could only make it worse, and that you have to stretch your mind a long, long way into some kind of bizarre hostage scenario before there's any need at all for you to be waving one around.

See, to me your story makes clear the anti-gun argument.

We've already established that criminals seem to have no problem getting hold of guns, so let's assume that your robber has one.

Now why do you need one? To shoot at him as he runs by, provoking an unecessary firefight over insured cash? Wouldn't you be better just staying in your house and out of his way?

But let's imagine that he's not as smart as you reported (pretty smart, by the way) and does break into your house to get your car. Why do you need a gun now? To shoot at an armed man, provoking a firefight in an enclosed space with your family? Wouldn't you be better off giving him your fully insured car?

I think it would be obvious to most people that in the situation you described, adding more guns could only make it worse, and that you have to stretch your mind a long, long way into some kind of bizarre hostage scenario before there's any need at all for you to be waving one around.

FACTS TO PONDER:

(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.

(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are120,000.

(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.

Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health Human Services.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Now think about this:

Guns:

(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000.

(YES, that's 80 Million)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.000188.

Statistics courtesy of FBI

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Remember, "Guns don't kill people, doctors do."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Please alert your friends to this alarming threat.

We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand!!!!!

I have a friend that is a cop and he was cleaning his weapon while watching TV with his wife and two kids. The weapon discharged and blew a hole in his TV screen. Should we now say that cops cant bring their weapons home with them. We can say guns don't kill people, that people kill people. We can say that we should physco analyze these freaks and find the root cause of their malfunctions. We can say that people are bored and uneducated. But IMHO, we need to hold people accountable for their actions. To many times we are seeing criminals getting light sentences for terrible crimes they committed because they were abused, picked on, homeless, fired from their jobs, expelled from school, eating to much fatty foods or that the devil told them to do it.

WTF!!! Is he still a cop? If so.....why? Stupid people with guns should not be police....

But, this cop is a good guy. This took place 4 years ago, and he got promoted twice over so far. He is a Miami FL. cop and he even carries an automatic weapon in his patrol car since he is a supervisor. I don't know if he is really stupid, he speaks French and Spanish for there are a lot of Haitians and Cubans in Miami. Also he has a Masters degree. Maybe he was just careless (hopefully just that one time)....

...HIS COLLEGE EDUCATION IN no WAY MEANS HE IS NOT STUPID....AND NO...HE SHOULD NOT BE ALOWED TO CARRY A FIREARM...sorry about the caps....not be allowed to carry a firearm as a public servant. TGreene where for art thou my friend? Your description of his (one time mistake) is enough to further arguments about gun control. First of all cleaning any weapon in my living room with my wife and kids present is bad enough, but then to have it discharge with ammo in the chamber...? Dude...he should stay in college...become a grad student for lyfe.....


P.S...is this the same cop caught on video giving a demo to high school kids and had his revolver go off during his presentation?

I'll give him a call tonight and let him know he should resign his postion and then I'll call his shift commander and let him know also. Gee, thanks for setting me straight on this........

P.S.. what is "gun control"?. I think that most people favor some kind of control on the guns in our citiies. But what exactly does that mean is the problem with enacting legislation on gun control.

Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people.

Actually, "Guns don't kill people; Stupid drivers talking on cell phones ."

...dude...all I'm saying is a person that is trained to handle and carry firearms as a public servant and then does what you describe is cause for that person to take serious stock of wether or not he or she should be allowed to carry any firearm. If not he or she...certainly their supervisor should review it. As far as Gun control....he is a poster child for why most people should NOT be allowed to own or handle firearms. If our own police are as stupid as the one you describe it only makes for more ammo for the anti-gun league....dig? I think Tradmans description comes into play here.

So by your reasoning, if he ass ends another vehicle, he should loose his job because he was careless?.....And if you agree with this statement, then all truck drivers should loose their jobs if they have accidents?? The thread was about wackos going off. The weapon discharging was an ACCIDENT. Yes it could have been avoided, but thats why they call them ACCIDENT. And just because someone made a mistake, doesn't make them stupid. He is a smart and honest cop.

See, to me your story makes clear the anti-gun argument.

We've already established that criminals seem to have no problem getting hold of guns, so let's assume that your robber has one.

Now why do you need one? To shoot at him as he runs by, provoking an unecessary firefight over insured cash? Wouldn't you be better just staying in your house and out of his way?

But let's imagine that he's not as smart as you reported (pretty smart, by the way) and does break into your house to get your car. Why do you need a gun now? To shoot at an armed man, provoking a firefight in an enclosed space with your family? Wouldn't you be better off giving him your fully insured car?

I think it would be obvious to most people that in the situation you described, adding more guns could only make it worse, and that you have to stretch your mind a long, long way into some kind of bizarre hostage scenario before there's any need at all for you to be waving one around.

Dude, you got no idea. There are cops out there that beat their wifes, beat thier kids, that are drunks and are still on the job. They are just people and they make mistakes like the rest of us.

But, this cop is a good guy. This took place 4 years ago, and he got promoted twice over so far. He is a Miami FL. cop and he even carries an automatic weapon in his patrol car since he is a supervisor. I don't know if he is really stupid, he speaks French and Spanish for there are a lot of Haitians and Cubans in Miami. Also he has a Masters degree. Maybe he was just careless (hopefully just that one time)....

Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people. :wink:

And yeah, the doctor statistic clearly describes how statistics ca be quickly turned around to something absurd :lol:

Actually, "Guns don't kill people; Stupid drivers talking on cell phones kill people."

I work with an ex cop. he quit because his co-workers disgusted him. Either they were stupid, crooked, or both.

okay....but there are good decent cops out there also. And I agree with you on the stats...if you read the earlier stat's that someone posted, it said accidental gun deaths. How about the gun deaths that was just plain murder. The number climbs drastically.............

The weapon discharging was an ACCIDENT. Yes it could have been avoided, but thats why they call them ACCIDENT. And just because someone made a mistake, doesn't make them stupid. He is a smart and honest cop.

Is there anyone who would seriously like to come forward and say that the US does not have a problem with guns?

I know a little about firearms, and I also know that what you have described is not referred to as an accident...

What you have described, would correctly and legally be referred to as a NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE.

Cheney as negligent as well, because he took a blind shot!

The difference in the 2 is huge, with 1 requiring NEGLIGENCE on the part of the operator. Failing to follow the rules of safety (especially when cleaning a weapon), is pure and simple negligence.

That said, I have in fact done the very same thing, and ended up putting a hole in my house... I WAS NEGLIGENT, and I'll never let myself forget it either!

Criminal no,but it could have been... Stupid YES!!!!

Had anyone been harmed during the negligent discharges that took place while cleaning firearms (mine happened when checking headspace after a rebuild), then charges could and should have been filed for criminal negligence - IE: Negligent Homicide is charged all the time.

Hehehe... I totally forgot that was there.

Actually, Norman is my middle name, and I am a Christian, and I'm also a ranked CMP High Power Marksman. :shock:

Hehehe... I totally forgot that was there.

Actually, Norman is my middle name, and I am a Christian, and I'm also a ranked CMP High Power Marksman. :shock:

Four girls shot dead at US school.

Bringing to three the number of shootings at US schools this week.

Is there anyone who would seriously like to come forward and say that the US does not have a problem with guns?

Is there anyone who would seriously like to come forward and say that their respective country does not have a problem with crime?

I didn't say crime, I said guns.

My country does not have 3 school shootings a week. In fact we've had about 2 in the last 10 years. Over here, that's considered unacceptable, and something that should be tackled.

Is there anyone who would seriously like to come forward and say that their respective country does not have a problem with crime?

What's the population of Scotland, and have they considered banning ashtrays yet..? :lol:

The point is that we (the US) dont have a problem with guns. The problem is with the "wackos" that are using the guns as thier weapon of choice.

This was my favorite "fun gun"... 8^)

http://www.great-river.com/pix/mp5-a3.gif

I didn't say crime, I said guns.

My country does not have 3 school shootings a week. In fact we've had about 2 in the last 10 years. Over here, that's considered unacceptable, and something that should be tackled.

:lol:

No, but they have banned smoking in bars! Guess I'll have think of something else next time (like making sure there isn't a next time i guess...)

:wink:

So you're not worried about crime in the US that isn't comitted with guns, you're only worried about how many people get shot here?

So if we ban guns... if we make them illegal. Will our crime go down?

As I'm sure has already been pointed out, every society has wackos. YOu can't get rid of them, so wouldn't it make sense to limit their access to guns?

Ah yes... we agree here. The wackos are not allowed to buy guns under US federal law.

I didn't say crime, I said guns.

My country does not have 3 school shootings a week. In fact we've had about 2 in the last 10 years. Over here, that's considered unacceptable, and something that should be tackled.

News flash.....BBC news reports that "Scotland has some of the highest rates of imprisonment of young people in Europe yet have not solved the problem with youth crimes."

And yet they still have access to guns because there are so many in the country.

There are plenty of wackos here (in fact we have a shameful violent crime problem that makes america look like the Land of Oz), but they don't have guns because almost all guns are illegal.

Do you agree that if there were fewer guns in the country, guns would be harder to obtain?

Which is better? People accidentally shooting themselves or people being shot by criminals (or assaulted because the criminal knows they won't have a gun to defend themselves).

favorite weapon for the US navel SEAL's................I prefer the M-4 though.

:)

I don't get it. Why is it you think crime will go up if there ordinary people don't have guns? Because they won't be able to "defend" themselves? You think that if a guy wants to rob someone, he won't if he thinks the ones he is going to rob have a gun? Will he instead just go get a job to pay for the food? If sorry, to me it seems VERY unlikely.
You say the criminals will always have guns, but why do they have guns? Might it be because they know victims also have guns, and therefore it would be a lot more risky to rob someone with eg. a knife than with a gun?

Now, you talk about accidental shootings, but how about those who commit murder in the heat of the moment? If a guy stumbles upon his wife cheating, and there is no gun around, and the guy is a violent freaky type, a severe beating might be a little better than if he had a gun the the next drawer and decides its better to just shoot everyone.

Why is it no pro-gunners ever answer this?
Oh...and sorry for bad grammar and spelling. English is my second language.

the idea is that a criminal who plans to assault someone will pick the easiest target. If a criminal thinks that said target may be armed with a gun, they are likely to pick another target or choose not to assault someone that day. To assume that the criminal is always going to assault someone, is to assume that crime is a constant or that the total amount of crime is not affected by the general law-abiding populace having access to firearms.

Crime may go up if the genpop didn't have access to guns because there are always people who on any given day may or may not commit a crime against a person. They may have low paying jobs, or other sources of income, but may commit a crime if the opportunity presents itself. These are the people who could be deterred by a gun carrying public.

Look up numbers from your most available unbiased source. look for violent crime numbers in Florida and Texas (high profile concealed carry states) or other concealed carry states.

Some of them show a marked decrease in the crime rate around (yes, "some" is not statistically significant). Look at violent crime rates for Australia and South Africa. They show a marked increase in the violent crime rate around the time their strict gun control measures were put in place. (yes... two countries, not the US. No logical conclusion can be firmly deduced, but it's suggestive of a possible outcome)

Sorry... I mentally lumped the two together (accidental shootings and shootings at home). I won't disagree that the mentally unstable (you say violent freaky) type may reach for a gun if it's handy and shoot his cheating wife. I also won't argue that I'd rather be stabbed or beaten than shot, and that without a gun handy he might pick up a knife or bat. However, the violent freaky (mentally unstable) types are the ones that shouldn't have guns. And, in fact, a diagnosed mentally unstable (violent freaky) person is not allowed to legally purchase a handgun in the US.

I can see your point, however living in a country where no one carries guns and with a very low crime rate all my life may have permanently damaged my view on guns, causing me to think they are not a necessary part of daily living anyone needs.
The thought of everyone around me having guns is not a comforting one.

I do also think this has something to do with other things than guns, eg. the social structure of the country. If even the poorest souls have a chance to live decent without having to do crime, there will eventually be less crime (by my logic, and in Denmark it seems to work OK).

And others might very well get even worse. Being used to guns might just cause criminals to take a step up, becoming even more cynic and cold because they know everyone is out to get them and have the means to do it. Therefore they will rather kill first and ask later.

Sorry, I have tried. I can't come up with many numbers of this, that makes much sense. In most cases I find good information, it seems overly simplified and already saturated with conclusions. I know I will be asking for information from the wrong guy here :lol: , but can you please show me some, so that I at least can have a look at the same as you?

Thats very interesting. But when I think about it (obviously with my very biased point of view), I can see how crime would go up for a period of time with recent gun restrictions placed. If the population is used to have guns, and suddenly they are removed, the attitude of the people will not change as fast as the guns are removed. This might cause the effect you were talking about, now the criminals no longer have to take precautions. after some time tho, the criminals may find out it is not such a good idea having guns, because 1: they don't need them anymore. 2: they can easily be arrested now just fro having the gun, its no more legal to carry one.

Hehe, sorry, sometimes I lack words to describe what I mean, I meant mentally unstable. I'm sure you can forgive my simple language. :smile:
In this section, you almost assume all mentally unstable people are automatically stapled "mentally unstable" when they are born. That is not the case i believe, and its a big gray zone with lots of different varieties of mental instabilities. One would have to do something abnormal to be put in the box "mentally unstable", and that thing might be to kill another person with a gun (if there is one :smile:), and then its already too late.

Lastly I want to thank you for keeping the tone this good, though if you think I'm rambling too much say so, because I'm never quite sure :lol:

And hey... I'm not from Scotland!!

That's probably why you're such a sissy that you need a gun to protect yourself from imaginary threats.

:lol:

Ah, that's what I called you. There's a swear filter on here that swaps all the naughty words; it replaces "pu ssy" with "sissy".

Wouldn't want you to feel under-insulted.

:wink:

People sometimes refer to the "gun culture" in the US. We are a country that won it's independance using pretty much just privately owned weapons (and some help from a country (france) that some of us like to make fun of now). Privately owned weapons have become ingrained in the way of living for many Americans.

This is one of those things we may never know which way it would go. The sociologists can theorize all they want on either side of the discussion, but we won't ever know.

I was being sarcastic (though now that I read it again, not very well). There aren't going to be any unbiased sources really. The best you could do would be FBI Uniform Crime Reports http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm They don't go back far enough though.
Any published numbers before 95 are going to be as part of a study on either side of the gun debate. And thus, not raw numbers, but already have conclusions drawn around them.

Yes, but the criminal with a knife will have an advantage over a victim with a knife simply by virtue of it already being drawn). We haven't even discussed the 6 foot 250 pound male attacker against the 5 foot 100 pound female victim. Even with the same knives and both weapons drawn, who has the advantage. That's when people start talking about outlawing knives (like the UK right now).

I think violent freaky was pretty descriptive. I got the point didn't I? :)

And hey... I'm not from Scotland!!

People shouldn't go around with knifes either :smile: In fact, it is already outlawed here in Denmark (7cm or less is allowed), unless you are a boyscout (they tend not to show in the crime statistics) or a hunter. If someone feels threatened pepper spray is in my opinion a better choice than lethal weapons, no permanent harm is done.

Would you feel better little girl, if we was to push em outta windows..?

and your school system??? do ppl really hate school that much??? or is it just convenient because they think children/teenagers are an easy target?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/...americas/5387062.stm

This is simple. First, don't accuse another nation's people of being wackos. On this planet, we are all wackos. Unless, of course, you're some righteous Middle Eastern CULT hellbent on destroying the world because they don't believe in your system or your god or whatever. Then your f*cking wackos. Oh, or Republican. :D

Anyway, the problem as I see it...

... Parents fail, not children.

Bravo, sir. Bravo indeed.

This is simple. First, don't accuse another nation's people of being wackos. On this planet, we are all wackos. Unless, of course, you're some righteous Middle Eastern CULT hellbent on destroying the world because they don't believe in your system or your god or whatever. Then your f*cking wackos. Oh, or Republican. :D

i didnt accuse the people of US of being wackos. i was just wondering why those that are wackos hate you school system so much. i think we can safely conclude that the person who did this thing was not a 'normal' US citizen.

i agree with the rest of your post though.

Nobody talks about the people who use guns to defend themselves or stop crimes.