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markc
Feb 12, 2007, 9:09 PM
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gblauer wrote: markc wrote: Would you be willing to answer a couple questions? I'm curious to know what you said you your belayer, if there was a reaction, and where this took place. Have you been belayed by this person before? The reason I ask is because I think some of us (myself included) can get lax with commands. I've had partners complete a climb and say, "Okay." I'm sure I've been guilty of it myself. Is the person ready to be lowered, is she anchored in and it's okay to remove the belay? It doesn't really mean anything. 1) I have climbed with her on several occasions. She knows that I never sling the horn and take mini practice falls at the end of every climb. 2) I was hanging off the last hold, a foot above my last bolt. I told her that I was done with the climb. "I'm done Nancy, coming off" . She acknowledged me with an "ok". We made eye contact and I let go of the last hold. 3) When I am outdoors I use very distinct commands: On belay, off belay, on rappel, off rappel, take etc. I never vary with my commands. 4) When I am indoors, since I always have eye contact with my belayer, I always let them know that I am going to drop off the wall. Again I ALWAYS take mini falls at the top of every climb. I always wait for my belayer to acknowledge my intention.
Yikes! It doesn't sound like you could have done anything more. It sounds like belayer error, and that your partner isn't very clear on what happened. Again, I hope you're recovered and climbing as soon as possible.
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redpoint73
Feb 12, 2007, 9:12 PM
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the_climber wrote: redpoint73 wrote: My guess is she lets the rope slide through her brake hand in order to lower you, and let it zip through her hand too fast. Once its starts to go, you cannot stop it. When I have taught beginners, I will show them to lower with both hands on the rope, and hand-over-hand the rope to feed it. That way, you always have a secure grip on the rope with at least one hand, as opposed to just letting it slide through your palm. Its not as fast, but it is safer. Oh, and just to be clear, I'm not so much giving this advice to the OP, but more as just a tip for the more novice viewers of this forum. On that note I would have to disagree with you on the hand over hand thing. It encourages letting go with the break hand... despite having another hand on the rope. I would recomend to the novice to use both hands on the rope, but to lower as normal. But this is off topic and best for a separate discussion.
I can respect that opinion, and can see your point. If a beginner is still trying to get the belay movements down as second nature w/o releasing the rope, then maybe that method of lowering is not the best.
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thomasribiere
Feb 12, 2007, 9:41 PM
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Sorry to hear that. I wish you a safe and complete recovery. Give us news from the swimming pool...
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silascl
Feb 12, 2007, 10:49 PM
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Sounds like the belayer tried to lower him from the start, as opposed to locking off and catching, then lowering.
After the initial fall it would be tough to catch if your brake hand was in a neutral position and not locking off.
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rai
Feb 12, 2007, 11:07 PM
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Sorry to hear about your bad luck there.
I just want to suggest one thing to all that read ...
first off, this type of accident is WAY WAY too common in our sport, which surprises me because it seems fairly simple to master - and I mean the communication/basics aspect.
If a climber is going to thread the anchors and then be lowered, he should go straight into the anchors and then say "Slack. I'm in direct (or straight)". Then, thread 'em, retie, drop the slack (while still in direct) and say TAKE.
When you say TAKE, you never assume you are safe to unclip until you feel the obvious tension (and ideally also hear Gotcha).
If there is no rethreading happening, you get to the top and you just yell TAKE. You don't let go until you feel obvious tension.
If you are going to rap, and only if you are going to rap - you say OFF BELAY. Saying Off Belay to thread the anchors and then be lowered by a belayer who may have walked away is just dicey....
I know not all of this applies in this situation, but 'drop off' is a bizarre command - I've climbed all over the country and in several other countries and I've never heard "drop off" ... we should avoid using casual commands that we come up with in our circles... We need to universalize the commands so that your friend that you teach to climb in the local crag can hang with the big dogs when he/she goes climbing without you - dropping the big dogs is never fun ...
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gblauer
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Feb 12, 2007, 11:19 PM
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" I know not all of this applies in this situation, but 'drop off' is a bizarre command - I've climbed all over the country and in several other countries and I've never heard "drop off" ... "
I did not use the words "drop off". Please read the thread. I said that I dropped off the wall.
Irrespective of what I said or DIDN"T say, it's ALWAYS the belayers responsibility to be attentive enough to catch a fall. If I say "falling", "take" or NOTHING at all, the belayers job is to CATCH the fall, without warning, without verbal exchange, without eye contact. Think about how many times on a multipitch climb you lose sight of your climber while belaying. Does that remove your responsibility as a belayer? NO!
In this case my belayer was known to me, my climbing style and habits were known to her. I had a verbal exchange and eye contact, yet, my belayer still lost control of the rope. She fully acknowledges that she lost control, but, does not understand why or how.
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majid_sabet
Feb 12, 2007, 11:20 PM
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I never thought belaying was important and climbers could get hurt like that but now you opened my eyes to reality.
Thanks , I am glade to see you are alive.
By the way, how is her hand doing ? Any burning marks on her fingers?
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 13, 2007, 6:46 AM)
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dingus
Feb 12, 2007, 11:24 PM
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gblauer wrote: She knows that I never sling the horn and take mini practice falls at the end of every climb.
Every climb? Do you intend to continue this practice?
DMT
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gblauer
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Feb 12, 2007, 11:26 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: By the way, how is her hand doing ? Any buring marks on her fingers?
She reported burning on her hand, with some blisters. Her head is far worse, but, we are working on that.
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gblauer
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Feb 12, 2007, 11:32 PM
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Dingus,
When I am training indoors, I drill falling for at least 15 minutes of my 3 hour workout. Sometimes I do it for a straight 15 minutes, or other times I do it at the top of routes. Understand, the gym where I climb, the last bolt is at most 4 feet below the horn. I always clip the last bolt and I always take the "victory whip". I rarely do this outdoors, unless it is a completely inconsequential fall.
I find that falling drills allow me to have a clear head when I am outdoors. I have spent the last 3 months training for a trip to Mexico (2/23-3/4). I wanted to be in top shape both mentally and phsyically.
Do I plan to continue this practice?
Who knows if I will have the "head" to do it. I will consult with Arno on that one...
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puerto
Feb 12, 2007, 11:44 PM
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Damn that sucks..
Obviously the belayer's fault, but non-standard commands like "coming on" or doing non-standard things at the anchor like practice falls just scare me..
Not saying it's the case here either, but I could easily imagine a scenario where someone's used to hearing "take" for years and years, then climbs with someone who uses another command for several months, and seems to be doing fine, then in one split second those years of being conditioned to "take" do not kick in because a different command was heard..
After reading about so many of these accidents, (like many on here) I just prefer to rap these days..
Best wishes for a speedy recovery
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majid_sabet
Feb 13, 2007, 12:00 AM
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gblauer wrote: majid_sabet wrote: By the way, how is her hand doing ? Any burning marks on her fingers? She reported burning on her hand, with some blisters. Her head is far worse, but, we are working on that.
Oh My GOD
Her hand got burnt by passing rope, how could this be possible ?
I guess a pair of leather gloves could help, do not you think SO ?
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shimanilami
Feb 13, 2007, 12:01 AM
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IMHO, if you plan to practice falling, make sure your belayer has a Gri-Gri.
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silascl
Feb 13, 2007, 12:07 AM
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shimanilami wrote: IMHO, if you plan to practice falling, make sure your belayer has a Gri-Gri.
Excellent idea. Is this so when you have an unplanned fall, they are almost certain to drop you?
As for anyone suggesting rapping or that he use more standard commands...he was in a gym, read the thread before you post meaningless advice.
There is a 99% chance that the belayer forgot about his victory whipper. He led to the anchors, she was thinking he was clipped, and instead he took the fall. She was unprepared and the rope went buzzing through her hands, as she was never locked off.
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billl7
Feb 13, 2007, 12:26 AM
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gblauer wrote: Dillbag wrote: What type of belay device was it? Just curious... ATC
a) not anticipating the need to aggressively to lock off in this case (obvious but see explanation below); and
b) having the ATC attached to the belay loop without the optimal arrangement of the brake strand.
Sometimes gym routes wander and produce a fair amount of drag. Sometimes there is incredibly little drag. Start getting used to the rope drag, start not locking off so much and ... whamo!
If using the harness's belay loop, the arrangement of the belay loop, ATC, break strand and lead strand can tend to twist if the orientation is not optimal. I've recently changed to the more optimal arrangement and seem to feel a lot more of a bite when catching a fall (yeah, could be placebo).
By optimal arrangement I mean with the lead strand on top and break strand on bottom as things come under load. Seems obvious, but it's easy to miss this if one was originally used to clipping the belay biner through leg and waist which tends to orient things differently. Miss it and there's more twist and so less of a bite.
Just some thoughts. Best wishes to you and your belayer coming up with the most likely cause - nad to your healing!
Bill L
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thespider
Feb 13, 2007, 12:30 AM
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What does that feel like? Do you have pain in just that area or does it spread out? Just wondering.
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puerto
Feb 13, 2007, 12:34 AM
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In reply to: Excellent idea. Is this so when you have an unplanned fall, they are almost certain to drop you? As for anyone suggesting rapping or that he use more standard commands...he was in a gym, read the thread before you post meaningless advice. There is a 99% chance that the belayer forgot about his victory whipper. He led to the anchors, she was thinking he was clipped, and instead he took the fall. She was unprepared and the rope went buzzing through her hands, as she was never locked off.
You read the fucking thread, the victim was a woman.
Rapping is not meaningless advice because these breakdown of communication scenarios happen all the time outside, where injuries are likely to be far worse..Fuck the gym..
How exactly is is that a standard command like "take" can't be applied in the gym anyway?
And bravo, you precisely made my point, the belayer "forgot" about the victory whipper because it was a nonstandard thing to do at the anchors (at least obviously for this belayer if she forgot)
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gblauer
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Feb 13, 2007, 12:38 AM
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"What does that feel like? Do you have pain in just that area or does it spread out? Just wondering. "
It felt like a mushroom cloud exploding across my lower back. Sparks shot down my legs and then things settled. Interestingly, the pain was much lower than my fracture. I have an L2 fracture, but the pain was in my lower back.
My back was very painful (a hot, searing pain) and my chest (left) and belly (lower right) were very painful to the touch. It felt like I broke ribs, although on xray it was not the case.
Now, two days later and two natural healing sessions later, my ribs are much better and my back is sore but very tolerable without pain medication
(This post was edited by gblauer on Feb 16, 2007, 2:42 AM)
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shimanilami
Feb 13, 2007, 12:42 AM
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silascl wrote: shimanilami wrote: IMHO, if you plan to practice falling, make sure your belayer has a Gri-Gri. Excellent idea. Is this so when you have an unplanned fall, they are almost certain to drop you?
Good observation. Per silascl, one should use a Gri-Gri whenever a fall might occur, whether it's "practice" or "for real".
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thespider
Feb 13, 2007, 12:43 AM
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Shit man, that sucks. Get well soon! Thanks for the lesson.
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potreroed
Feb 13, 2007, 1:06 AM
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Sorry to hear about this--I guess you won't be coming to Mexico soon after all??
Every time I hear about stuff like this I love my gri-gri even more. We had a situation here in the Potrero recently where a gri-gri saved a life which would not have been the case had the belayer been using an ATC.
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rai
Feb 13, 2007, 1:18 AM
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gblauer wrote: On Saturday, 2/10, I lead an easy 5.7 as a warm down. I got to the top of climb, clipped the last bolt, called out to my belayer and let her know that I was done with the climb and that I was going to drop off the wall. She acknowledged me and off I came. Edited: I called down to her, let her know that I was at the top of the climb. I was a foot above my last bolt, so I elected to let go and "drop" off the wall rather than sling the horn. She acknowledged my intentions and said that she was ready for me.
This is where I got confused and found the term "drop off" - I didn't imagine it. And I did read the entire thread.
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moose_droppings
Feb 13, 2007, 1:18 AM
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Dang, thats the shits, hope you get up and about soon. I've got problems with L2, and it takes quite a while to get 100% again, so take it gingerly.
I sure hope you don't go to hard on your belayer, accidents happen, and I'd bet she's being pretty hard on herself already.
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gblauer
Moderator
Feb 13, 2007, 1:22 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: I sure hope you don't go to hard on your belayer, accidents happen, and I'd bet she's being pretty hard on herself already.
She is giving me energy healing sessions everyday. She is a cranio sacral/polarity therapist.
I have seen her everyday since I joined the "30 foot club".
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rai
Feb 13, 2007, 1:24 AM
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silascl wrote: As for anyone suggesting rapping or that he use more standard commands...he was in a gym, read the thread before you post meaningless advice.
Are you for real? Since when are standard commands not useful in the gym? Don't many (if not most) people learn in gyms anymore? Shouldn't we instill the proper commands from the beginning...? PS - I teach in a gym, which is why and from where I made the comment - outside, inside ... doesn't matter! Be consistent!
As for the burning of her hand, sounds like she didn't expect so much slack to be out when he "dropped off" the wall. I catch big fellahs on big falls and I've never been burned. I'd say it had more to do with the element of surprise, but since that was apparently not the case in this situation- even though that seems like the obvious scenario... I guess it's a moot point.
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