Shouldn't a man take some responsibility for his behavior? If he doesn't want to be called a perv, perhaps he should save his pathetic, adolescent attempts at blaming everyone but himself for his own choices for somewhere other than The Ladies' Room.

In other words, you ogle, you chose to ogle. All women don't dress up just to have men like you leer at them. Besides, some of them are lesbians and have no interest in your attention at all.

I echo what was said earlier. There is a very big difference between appreciating and ogling. You would do well to learn that difference.

Shouldn't a man take some responsibility for his behavior? If he doesn't want to be called a perv, perhaps he should save his pathetic, adolescent attempts at blaming everyone but himself for his own choices for somewhere other than The Ladies' Room.

I think you're a little bit too quick to over react. Certainly i'm sure we both agree that there are generally accepted standards of dress that society expects of both women and men. We can also agree that generally, people (in spite of themselves) make judgements of stranges entirely on apperance.

With that in mind, if I dress up like a bum, I will be treated like a bum, and if a woman dresses up like a working-girl, she can expect to be treated like a working girl, by both men and women.... and in the case of men, it will likely include ogeling, and lude remarks.

No, it's not fair, and no, it's not right but it's the way society today works.

Just as a final defence, no ones ever accused me of leering or ogling a women.... nor do I think I do.

slablizard wrote:

I don't see why appreciating one's beauty has to be seen as "ogling"

I'll ask you the same thing I asked to my friend.
Would you prefer to be so ugly that no one would look at you ever? I don't think so.

And I am sure also a lesbian woman appreciate the fact that someone notices her beauty, her fit body and her tastes in dressing.

climb_eng wrote:

I think you're a little bit too quick to over react.

in the case of men, it will likely include ogeling, and lude remarks.

No, it's not fair, and no, it's not right but it's the way society today works.

Just as a final defence, no ones ever accused me of leering or ogling a women.... nor do I think I do.

I find it very hard not to look at a beautiful or sexy woman. You reveal legs or breasts to me, and I have to try very hard not to stare. Am I a perv, or is it perhaps just human nature?

Shouldn't a woman take some responsibility for her appearance? If she doesn't want to be ogled, perhaps she should save the up-to-the-butt miniskirt, cleavage enhancing push up bra and super low cut shirt for the club?

Give me a break. Its like the defense of the rapist that says, she was dressed like a hooker and out too late at night............she was asking for it"

Risque dress might make us look twice, but that doesn't give us the right to treat women lesser than if they were in sweat pants and a t-shirt. As individuals we have a right to wear whatever we want and feel good about it. We should not have to expect rude. condesencding behavior.

I really hate the whole "thats how society works" excuse.

Maybe you missed when I very explicitly stated that there is a difference between the two. Try paying attention.

Or you just don't think. As mentioned, by you and by me, there is a difference between appreciation and ogling. Your question suggests that there is no middle ground, as though women should be glad to be ogled because the only other option is being too ugly to have men want to ogle. So, so stupid, and so contrary to your own point that there is a difference between appreciation and ogling. Most women would rather not be ogled. Period.

The point is that all women do not dress up for the point of receiving male attention. That was merely one example.

Put all that aside, Ladies your climbing skills (as a rule) are superior to us guys. I appreciate the natural skills and I like to watch them. My original unanswered question. Does that make me a perv?

Yes we climbed together at the Concord gym once, and I swear..I wasn't ogling at you while belaying.

Not once ;)

Wow, this thread has degenerated into something really lame... Not that it ever had that far to go in the first place. I'm not suprised if you guys can't find women to climb with you. I'm suprised that women would talk with you if you're commenting on or staring at their body parts. Pervs AND Pigs are revealing their true character just by simply posting or defending the notion that women exist simply to be looked at and judged as ugly or attractive by men. I'm sorry, that's just lame and I really hope that none of you have little girls at home. Do us all a favor don't reproduce.

Give me a break. Its like the defense of the rapist that says, she was dressed like a hooker and out too late at night............she was asking for it"

Risque dress might make us look twice, but that doesn't give us the right to treat women lesser than if they were in sweat pants and a t-shirt. As individuals we have a right to wear whatever we want and feel good about it. We should not have to expect rude. condesencding behavior.

I really hate the whole "thats how society works" excuse.

Holy crap... this is really dredging up the worst in people. Both men and women are judged by their apperance first... if you deny it, your either blind or lying..

I dont' think you understand. People can give you an impression by their appearance, but it is your choice to judge them.

I have a friend (heck, maybe you've even met her if you're in engineering out in Calgary, so is she). She is petite, and big boobs. If you stuck both her and me in the same outfit she would instantly look sexier. She also has a bubbly personality and likes her fasion, which also adds to her physical image. I have seen people who don't give her the respect that she deserves both in school and in our profession (we both graduated electircal engineering). And it makes me sick.

She is one smart cookie and a hard worker. Smarter and harder working than I am, most likely more that you too. But I bet that you would meet her, judge her, and not let her reach her full potiential in an engineering office.

People need to earn respect, but there should be a basic level of respect that you give everyone, regarless of how they dress, how they looks, age sex and race.

In other words, you're a fool if you can't look beyond a person's clothes, makeup or boobs.

I dont' think you understand. People can give you an impression by their appearance, but it is your choice to judge them.

I have a friend (heck, maybe you've even met her if you're in engineering out in Calgary, so is she). She is petite, and big boobs. If you stuck both her and me in the same outfit she would instantly look sexier. She also has a bubbly personality and likes her fasion, which also adds to her physical image. I have seen people who don't give her the respect that she deserves both in school and in our profession (we both graduated electircal engineering). And it makes me sick.

She is one smart cookie and a hard worker. Smarter and harder working than I am, most likely more that you too. But I bet that you would meet her, judge her, and not let her reach her full potiential in an engineering office.

People need to earn respect, but there should be a basic level of respect that you give everyone, regarless of how they dress, how they looks, age sex and race.

In other words, you're a fool if you can't look beyond a person's clothes, makeup or boobs.

So now you're comparing me to a rapist? I find that extremely offensive and inappropriate.

No one needs to be given the right to treat someone a certain way, they inherently have that right. If you put on a crude act (be it dress or behavior), male or female you can expect to be treated crudely.


It's not an excuse... it's reality.

Hey ladies, sorry to invade your space, but I do have a legitimate question for you. I love climbing with girls. I enjoy their skills and the way they climb. Yes I do enjoy "watching" the female body climb but I don't feel like it is a "sexual" thing. I'm not looking for a date or anything but climbing partners. Honestly, but how do I convince women to climb with me without seeming like a pervert? Or worse am I really a perv and don't know it? You would think at 45 yrs old I'd have things like this figured out!!! LOL Thanks for your time

no, i'm not comparing you to a rapist, i'm just throwing out another instance where woman have been given the "I told you so, it's your fault excuse",when they have been victimized.

so now women in in low cut, revealing dress attire is crude and therefore, you have the right to treat her differently.

well, i hold mself and others in my life to a different standard, than what you may believe society allows.

I personally am offended by one thing. I am a carpenter and I dress like a carpenter. I demand not to be treated as less than anyone in any suit!! And when I go to the bank to talk to my banker, I still dress like a carpenter and at the end we shake each others hands.