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evanwish
May 30, 2007, 10:44 PM
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what are you supposed to do in the situation where you have to bail on a route where a fall would be very dangerous and protection is sparce?
i'm just trying to be prepared is all.
if you know and want to help me write back if you want to be condesending you can go somewhere else
thanks
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roshiaitareya
May 30, 2007, 10:46 PM
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Just downclimb.
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yazey
May 30, 2007, 10:51 PM
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It should be that simple.
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petsfed
May 30, 2007, 10:56 PM
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evanwish wrote: what are you supposed to do in the situation where you have to bail on a route where a fall would be very dangerous and protection is sparce? i'm just trying to be prepared is all. if you know and want to help me write back if you want to be condesending you can go somewhere else thanks
In such a situation, you climb up or you climb down until you can get a solid piece in to bail from. Take your pick.
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chanceboarder
May 30, 2007, 11:01 PM
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Sprout wings and fly!
Jason
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greenketch
May 30, 2007, 11:07 PM
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If were just talkin about being prepared it's a good time to chat.
If you are like me you often take guide notes with a agrain of salt. When it gets into the x rated and runout notes I try to pay attention. If it is an issue I don't lead at my limit on a runout. Once you are there as stated it's either climb up or climb down. I generally choose to climb something I am pretty sure I can do. If it goes good do it agin on lead.
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shanz
May 30, 2007, 11:14 PM
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When in doubt run it out
God i hate downclimbing
(This post was edited by shanz on May 30, 2007, 11:32 PM)
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rocknice2
May 30, 2007, 11:18 PM
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First before climbing a run-out scope it out from your last good placement. Look for foot hold sequences that will get you to the next protectable feature. Decide whether or nor your up to the task. If you decide it's within you, then commit. Remember your sequences as much as possible, this may be necessary. If you get to a section that is irreversible, you must once again decide to go forward or down climb. You decide to go for it. Well now your fully committed, come hell or high water. There is no going back. Keep it together, concentrate on every move. Make them calculating and precise.
Second if your talking about being up a run-out and because of unforeseen circumstances you MUST bail. [It starts to rain...Your belayer sparks a blunt...The bolt you were heading for was in fact a butterfly and just flew away]. Well your just plain fucked.
You can try going down to minimize you fall as much as possible. You may even make it to the last pro.
Keep going up.
Go off route to a protectable feature.
Pray Majid doesn't post your experiences in the I&A section of RC.com
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caughtinside
May 30, 2007, 11:22 PM
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If you have to ask...
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ja1484
May 30, 2007, 11:35 PM
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Funny this should pop up. Was out at Stone Mountain yesterday and my partner and I got on Grand Funk Railroad. It's an excellent route, but even by Stone Mountain standards, it's pretty ballsy. The route, for those who don't know, is about 600 feet over 5 pitches. Excluding anchors, which are bolted, I believe we had 5 pieces of protection on the entire route, 3 of them being bolts on the first two pitches, the other two being slung horns. Pitches 4 and 6 have no protection whatsoever, making them nice little 100 foot runouts anchor to anchor. Thank god the climbing is about 5.6/5.7ish.
Anyway, I was leading pitch four and initially missed the shuts at the end. I was motoring along towards the shuts I *could* see some 50 feet ahead, thinking this was awfully long for 100 feet, when my partner yelled out that I had about 20 feet of rope left.
I was 160 feet out from the anchors, and about 40 feet out from the last (and only) piece of pro, a slung horn.
So, you do what you have to do. I downclimbed the 40 or so feet, grabbed the juggy horn, and took a look around. I finally spotted the shuts (they were off the right of the route in a depression...easy to miss), removed the pro, and downclimbed another 30 or so feet, and traversed about 20' to the shuts and anchored in.
Sometimes life ain't easy, but you gotta keep calm (probably more important than anything else, honestly speaking), think for a little bit, and communicate well with the belay. Then, as Petsfed said, you either go up or down until you can manage things.
Good luck out there.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on May 30, 2007, 11:41 PM)
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theirishman
May 30, 2007, 11:37 PM
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i always just carry an epi-pen with me when im stuck on those hard moves, just jam it in my leg and BOOM i can climb .14d maybe not legal.... but it helps
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csproul
May 31, 2007, 12:46 AM
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Good lord man. Wasn't it about 100 degrees at Stone Mtn last weekend? I gave up on going to Stone about a month ago.
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Pdizz
May 31, 2007, 1:07 AM
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In reply to: If you have to ask...
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ja1484
May 31, 2007, 1:17 AM
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As I recall, it was about 85 degrees when we were out there, but in any event, it was plenty toasty. My partner and I came back pink and tender.
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caughtinside
May 31, 2007, 4:34 AM
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Pdizz wrote: In reply to: If you have to ask... then he probably needs to know.....
Something to be said for figuring out the obvious on your own, you know.
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chalkfree
May 31, 2007, 5:20 AM
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Sure, there is something to be said about learning things the hard way, but there's also something to be said about not having to.
For example, learning about gravity at an early age by falling off the roof onto your neck has little value, so maybe you should either answer the god damn question or shut the hell up.
The answer is as above, the options are up or down, nothing in between will generally help.
(This post was edited by chalkfree on May 31, 2007, 5:21 AM)
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caughtinside
May 31, 2007, 5:08 PM
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chalkfree wrote: Sure, there is something to be said about learning things the hard way, but there's also something to be said about not having to. For example, learning about gravity at an early age by falling off the roof onto your neck has little value, so maybe you should either answer the god damn question or shut the hell up. The answer is as above, the options are up or down, nothing in between will generally help.
Yeah you're right. I guess some people do need to have the obvious explained to them. More than once, it would seem.
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the_climber
May 31, 2007, 5:19 PM
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You know I was thinking about it, and the whole what if thing...
It kinda sound like the whole new routing experiance. Only thing is it's an established route and you can't drill of of hooks to save your ass.
Your viable options are:
-up
-off route to a protecable feature
-down
or....
the express ride.
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wannabe
May 31, 2007, 5:19 PM
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Consider carrying a hook to aid the sections you can't free or to simply allow you to stop and plan a course of action. This will save you from the "impossible" downclimb on those runout slabs.
(This post was edited by wannabe on May 31, 2007, 5:21 PM)
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foeslts16
May 31, 2007, 5:59 PM
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caughtinside wrote: Yeah you're right. I guess some people do need to have the obvious explained to them. More than once, it would seem.
WOW - this coming from a guy who at one point wanted to know if it was ok to sew his own climbing gear:
caughtinside wrote: “Does anybody know anything about bartacking, specifically, doing it yourself? I have access to a pretty heavy duty sewing machine so I don't think equipment will be an issue, and I'll be sure to make a couple practice runs first.”.
i guess you never asked any obovious questions in the beginning like:
caughtinside wrote: “I've never had/placed a hex, and was wondering if there was really a difference between nuts and small wired hexes.”.
seems like a no-brainer to me, or how about this one:
“caughtinside wrote: Was wondering if anyone had used those blue Omega JC wiregate biners and what they thought. Also, should they just be used for clipping rope to pro?”.
most of us come from humble beginnings.
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caughtinside
May 31, 2007, 6:02 PM
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foeslts16 wrote: caughtinside wrote: Yeah you're right. I guess some people do need to have the obvious explained to them. More than once, it would seem. caughtinside wrote: “Does anybody know anything about bartacking, specifically, doing it yourself? I have access to a pretty heavy duty sewing machine so I don't think equipment will be an issue, and I'll be sure to make a couple practice runs first.”. caughtinside wrote: “I've never had/placed a hex, and was wondering if there was really a difference between nuts and small wired hexes.”. caughtinside wrote: Was wondering if anyone had used those blue Omega JC wiregate biners and what they thought. Also, should they just be used for clipping rope to pro?”.
hahahahaha!!!!!
Thanks for wasting your morning digging up old posts so you could hump my leg a little.
I'm not to cool to laugh at myself a bit. 
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j_ung
May 31, 2007, 6:03 PM
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wannabe wrote: Consider carrying a hook to aid the sections you can't free or to simply allow you to stop and plan a course of action. This will save you from the "impossible" downclimb on those runout slabs.
Good answers mostly, but something got left out. Somebody asked me a similar question a few weeks ago and I gave the same answers, e.g., take careful stock of the situation, commit only if confident. Once you're in it and things aren't working out like you hoped, take careful stock again, evaluate options, press on or downclimb to gear, then bail or rest. Then he asked, "What do you do if you can't go up or down?" I thought for a second tryng to come up with an answer. When I did it was so obvious, I wondered how why it took me any time at all to come up with it.
I replied, "Sometimes there isn't a happy ending."
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foeslts16
May 31, 2007, 6:16 PM
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nah, spent 5 minutes digging through 1 page of yr posts, wasnt worth anymore time.
"I'm not to cool to laugh at myself a bit. " - good, i'm not to cool to laugh at you either.
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caughtinside
May 31, 2007, 6:19 PM
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foeslts16 wrote: caughtinside wrote: Yeah you're right. I guess some people do need to have the obvious explained to them. More than once, it would seem. caughtinside wrote: “Does anybody know anything about bartacking, specifically, doing it yourself? I have access to a pretty heavy duty sewing machine so I don't think equipment will be an issue, and I'll be sure to make a couple practice runs first.”. caughtinside wrote: “I've never had/placed a hex, and was wondering if there was really a difference between nuts and small wired hexes.”. caughtinside wrote: Was wondering if anyone had used those blue Omega JC wiregate biners and what they thought. Also, should they just be used for clipping rope to pro?”.
You know, this really cracked me up. So, I thought I would answer these obvious questions so that others can learn!
1. I never bartacked, but I've seen it done. However, I discovered it is easier, cheaper and more convenient to just tie your nylon slings with water knots. While slightly bulkier, these slings are great, sturdy, cost about a dollar, and let you back up rap stations, or are cheap to leave when you need to bail. You can even stuff the knot in a crack as pro! Sorry, it won't help you bail mid-runout.
2. Strangely enough, I still can't comment with any authority on small hexes. years later, and I still can't see if they are worth a damn. Just use a nut instead! Or best yet, stop using regular nuts, get your hands on some hb offsets. Use those and don't look back.
3. Shortly after that post, I got a half dozen JC wiregates. I still have at least 5 of them. They are great fro clipping the rope. You can clip pro with them, but I would not recommend it. While the huge basket and curved spine make a great clipping biner that seldom if ever crossloads, the big basket slides around a lot on bolt hangers and pins. This means that they just don't sit in one place. If you fall, you can notch your biners in multiple different spots! You're bummed.
4. SInce the question has been asked and enough people feel it is a question worth asking, should you find yourself on a runout from which you have to bail, you can do several things:
tell yourself something like "It's only 5.8. who cares if you can't see the next gear opportunity. quit being a pussy and get up there."
Or yell to your partner "holy shit bro I can't see any pro for days, I'm coming down (add a good excuse here, like that the sun was in your eyes).
Or (hasn't been mentioned yet!) traverse! Just make sure that your traverse won't make your situation go from bad traverse. yuk yuk.
Hope that helps.
BTW, if anyone can tell me about the possible advantages of small hexes over nuts, I'm all ears! Or eyes? Oh forget it. I won't use them anyway. Big hexes either for that matter.
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foeslts16
May 31, 2007, 6:24 PM
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right on man.... you gotta be kidding me about the hexes thing though, hexes rule.
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caughtinside
May 31, 2007, 6:26 PM
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foeslts16 wrote: right on man.... you gotta be kidding me about the hexes thing though, hexes rule.
I'll have to take your word for it. I've placed 3 hexes in the last 5 years. Just out of curiousity's sake.
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markc
May 31, 2007, 6:51 PM
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caughtinside wrote: Or (hasn't been mentioned yet!) traverse! Just make sure that your traverse won't make your situation go from bad traverse. yuk yuk.
Um, several people did mention going off-route or traversing. Still, it's a worthy suggestion and a pretty punny follow-up.
On runout routes, being able to read the route and protection opportunities ahead, identify moves you won't be able to reverse, and carefully calculate your odds of success are all important. For that reason, it's good to lead below your limit while you develop those skills. As Jay said, there may not always be a happy ending. You have to decide going in that you're willing to take that chance.
If you're sure you can't go up, down, left, or right without falling, you're going to be in a scary and lonely place. If it's a slab, I'd most likely explain to my belayer what the problem is, then try to get as close to the last piece as I could before falling. In the meantime, my belayer should be ready to take as much slack as possible while I get ready to play hot-potato with the rock.
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cj1
May 31, 2007, 7:05 PM
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In what circumstances, certain dynos aside, would it not be possible to downclimb?
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csproul
May 31, 2007, 7:10 PM
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Don't know about you, but I've led lots of things that I would be hard pressed to down climb! Especially if 30 ft over my last gear and the moves were difficult for me going up.
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jt512
May 31, 2007, 7:15 PM
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chalkfree wrote: Sure, there is something to be said about learning things the hard way, but there's also something to be said about not having to.
There's something to be said about using your brain instead of asking a stupid question on the internet.
Jay
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markc
May 31, 2007, 7:19 PM
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cj1 wrote: In what circumstances, certain dynos aside, would it not be possible to downclimb?
It Depends (TM) on the nature of the route in question. I'm not one to try reversing certain bulges, and certainly not a lot of roofs. You're going to have a poor view of your feet, and I'm not quite sure how to get in position to reverse a twisting lock-off. Some moves are so thin and delicate that I wouldn't try to reverse them on lead.
Besides, downclimbing is an under-trained skill for many of us. The movements and body tension feel quite different to me. I'll gladly try to downclimb things on toprope. I'm less keen on trying to downclimb on lead anywhere near my limit while I'm gripped.
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dr_feelgood
May 31, 2007, 7:45 PM
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Take the whippa!
If you're gunna fall, you may as well enjoy it.
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Pdizz
May 31, 2007, 9:36 PM
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In reply to: Yeah you're right. I guess some people do need to have the obvious explained to them. More than once, it would seem.
no.....
you have exlpaind anything at all..
because you cant.
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caughtinside
May 31, 2007, 9:39 PM
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Pdizz wrote: In reply to: Yeah you're right. I guess some people do need to have the obvious explained to them. More than once, it would seem. have you explaind the answer to him more than once? no..... you have exlpaind anything at all.. because you cant.
I am quoting you here because your barely literate response made me laugh. well done.
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medicus
May 31, 2007, 10:06 PM
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caughtinside wrote: Pdizz wrote: In reply to: Yeah you're right. I guess some people do need to have the obvious explained to them. More than once, it would seem. have you explaind the answer to him more than once? no..... you have exlpaind anything at all.. because you cant. I am quoting you here because your barely literate response made me laugh. well done.
Yeah, you just have to completely ignore Pdizz. Nothing good ever comes out of his posts. He seems to be a firm believer in trying to just stir up crap and is useless beyond measure.
As for the hexes comment, I rarely use my 4 and 5, and rarely use 10 and 11, but I use the mid range sizes I have all the time.
The OP, I believe your question has been answered quite well at this point.
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bandycoot
May 31, 2007, 10:32 PM
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I've only found myself in that situation once. I tried to lead The Edge at Tahquitz. I made it through the hardest 10' part, but the next bolt was still a ways away. I had a foothold bread off, and somehow managed to not fall. It completely wrecked my confidence, since my success wasn't as tied to my skill level as I thought it was... the rock quality was worse than expected! I just started downclimbing until I fell. No big deal, but I was able to downclimb 5-10' before falling. So, I guess I'm saying there's a hybrid answer: downclimb, THEN express ride!
Josh
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snoopy138
May 31, 2007, 10:44 PM
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caughtinside wrote: traverse! Just make sure that your traverse won't make your situation go from bad traverse. yuk yuk.
You're probably not aware of this, but there's actually a route down here at Tahquitz called From Bad Traverse. Class 4 in the old guide, 5.6 in the modern one.
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shimanilami
May 31, 2007, 10:58 PM
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You could carry a bolting kit at all times ... although this may get you killed just as dead as decking would.
Or you could carry a parachute. You'd just have to be really quick to deploy it.
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caughtinside
May 31, 2007, 11:10 PM
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snoopy138 wrote: caughtinside wrote: traverse! Just make sure that your traverse won't make your situation go from bad traverse. yuk yuk. You're probably not aware of this, but there's actually a route down here at Tahquitz called From Bad Traverse. Class 4 in the old guide, 5.6 in the modern one.
Oh yes, I am familiar with that route. The name, that is, haven't climbed it.
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el_layclimber
Jun 1, 2007, 1:28 AM
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In reply to: BTW, if anyone can tell me about the possible advantages of small hexes over nuts, I'm all ears! Or eyes? Oh forget it. I won't use them anyway. Big hexes either for that matter.
I don't use small hexes either, but I see little difference. If there is any miniscule advantage of a hex over a similarly sized nut, one would be in that it has 3 possible orientations, and potentially more range than a nut. Two of those surfaces also generate some passive camming action as well. Having the hex slung on cord might on occasion be advantageous.
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healyje
Jun 1, 2007, 2:36 AM
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evanwish wrote: what are you supposed to do in the situation where you have to bail on a route where a fall would be very dangerous and protection is sparce?
j_ung gave the real word - sometimes you're just screwed - it can be fly and die. All in all it's an emotional exercise and if you aren't prepared to find a groove and flow with it you can find yourself in troubled waters. On the issue of protection, there isn't much you can do in the way of 'sparce', but having solid technical gear skills can allow you to make the most of whatever a climb offers up.
I typically end up in these situations doing groundup, onsight multipitch FAs where there is usually no knowing ahead of time what you may be getting into and you just have to deal. It's quite a different experience than heading up an existing climb you know has a runout. I prefer not knowing myself as, for whatever reason, I deal a lot better with a runout just happening than knowing in advance one is somehow looming over a pitch.
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dr_feelgood
Jun 1, 2007, 3:27 AM
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Hook + Tape = your friend.
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thegreytradster
Jun 1, 2007, 3:44 AM
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By definition a "runout" is something that you CAN NOT! bail from!
Don't buy a ticket unless you are prepared to stay for the last act! (know what you are geting into)
There used to be a concept of "the leader never falls" I started climbing when the disclamer "very often" was added. Now gear is treated like bolts in the gym and the "head game" is often lost at a future cost that you are now aluding to.
It's amazing what you can pull off when you think you are going to die.
do not consider this advice to step out on to terrain you are not prepared for
see Healje's post above!
A hook and tape won't save you. The only thing that will, is your abillity to "keep it together"
( oh and, From Bad Traverse, really is 4th)
(This post was edited by thegreytradster on Jun 1, 2007, 3:48 AM)
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snoopy138
Jun 1, 2007, 5:23 AM
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caughtinside wrote: snoopy138 wrote: caughtinside wrote: traverse! Just make sure that your traverse won't make your situation go from bad traverse. yuk yuk. You're probably not aware of this, but there's actually a route down here at Tahquitz called From Bad Traverse. Class 4 in the old guide, 5.6 in the modern one. Oh yes, I am familiar with that route. The name, that is, haven't climbed it.
And here I thought you were clever enough to come up with the pun on your own.
thegreytradster wrote: ( oh and, From Bad Traverse, really is 4th)
I'm not surprised. Angel's Fright really seems 5.4, White Maiden (well, when I was on route) felt 5.1, etc. Haven't done FBT, since I haven't gotten on any of the Bulge routes yet.
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healyje
Jun 1, 2007, 5:34 AM
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thegreytradster wrote: There used to be a concept of "the leader never falls" I started climbing when the disclamer "very often" was added. Now gear is treated like bolts in the gym and the "head game" is often lost at a future cost that you are now aluding to.
I'm not an adherent to the "leader must not fall" school of thought, but thegreytradsters point is well worth repeating. Work gear and trad routes like bolts and sport routes and you may risk not developing the emotional head necessary to do runouts at your limit. Lots of sport climbers do them below their limit, but doing them at your limit is another game altogether.
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evanwish
Jun 1, 2007, 6:03 AM
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wow. YES!
if anyone could tell me the difference in usage of the small hexs and the medium nuts....
my only guess would be that the small hexs would possably be for a more parallel crack.
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healyje
Jun 1, 2007, 8:34 AM
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Hexs are still fine pro though your milage can very by rock type. But by and large they've been deprecated by cams of the same size. I don't bother carrying the small ones anymore and only rarely carry the big ones. When I do it's usually a #9 or #10 for a specific placement I have in mind.
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reno
Jun 1, 2007, 3:06 PM
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cj1 wrote: In what circumstances, certain dynos aside, would it not be possible to downclimb?
Overhanging routes.
Probably *possible*, but not easy.
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justthemaid
Jun 1, 2007, 3:08 PM
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...and the "Quote of the Day Award" goes to....
thegreytradster wrote: It's amazing what you can pull off when you think you are going to die. |
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stymingersfink
Jun 2, 2007, 6:43 AM
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caughtinside wrote: foeslts16 wrote: right on man.... you gotta be kidding me about the hexes thing though, hexes rule. I'll have to take your word for it. I've placed 3 hexes in the last 5 years. Just out of curiousity's sake.
think about it for a minute, you'll get it.
i prefer the metolius curved hexes for my rack.
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deepplaymedia
Jun 2, 2007, 10:51 AM
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In reply to: what do you do.... a route where a fall would be very dangerous and protection is sparce?
dont let go?
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kixx
Jun 4, 2007, 11:05 PM
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I am not a smoker but somebody posted here a while back that taking the time to smoke (tobacco or other leafy substance) may give you the opportunity to take stock of your situation and think for a minute about how the hell you're gonna get outta there as well as calm your nerves.
So, I tried it during an epic this spring and...
It worked. It even stopped my Elvis leg.
My modified BD hook helped a little too... this wouldn't work if you aren't hands free obviously. But one more tool for the tool box nonetheless.
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rocknice2
Jun 5, 2007, 12:03 AM
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kixx wrote: I am not a smoker but somebody posted here a while back that taking the time to smoke (tobacco or other leafy substance) may give you the opportunity to take stock of your situation and think for a minute about how the hell you're gonna get outta there as well as calm your nerves. So, I tried it during an epic this spring and... It worked. It even stopped my Elvis leg. My modified BD hook helped a little too... this wouldn't work if you aren't hands free obviously. But one more tool for the tool box nonetheless.
Let me get this straight you don't smoke but you carry (tobacco or other leafy substance) on lead?
In reply to: My modified BD hook helped a little too... this wouldn't work if you aren't hands free obviously. But one more tool for the tool box nonetheless
edit 4 spelling
(This post was edited by rocknice2 on Jun 5, 2007, 12:05 AM)
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deepplaymedia
Jun 5, 2007, 8:44 AM
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haha yeh my mate does that... he's a bit of a crazy aid climber (read: very hardcore onsight solo FAs on dogface) and he'll be sitting on an absolutely shitty tiny homemade pecker in a clay-band and whip out his pre-packed pipe for a cone before he feels ready to highstep on it
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kixx
Jun 6, 2007, 1:16 AM
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I'm stretching the truth there a little bit, although that's not to say I haven't had leading partners stop to "think about this for a minute." translated to "have a smoke"
I just think it's funny... and adds to the comments earlier in this post that a leader always needs to be aware their surroundings and take the time to look around for solutions - no tunnel vision. It's good advice and has helped me on many an occasion. (even if I don't actually pull out the pipe)
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rocknice2
Jun 6, 2007, 1:26 AM
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Kixx you could have just said "I never inhaled"
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joeforte
Jun 6, 2007, 3:09 AM
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Wow you guys are nutz, but I'm sure it works... Better kept for solo stuff if you ask me. Only your life in your hands.
Edited to add:
Actually, I KNOW it works, but for some reason I only fully trust myself when I'm straight. I've pulled off some stunts to argue the opposite though.....
(This post was edited by joeforte on Jun 6, 2007, 3:12 AM)
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